My basic battleplan against horde armies is to concentrate most of my forces in one table quarter, then try to turn the game into a battle down the long axis of the table. I'll annihilate units near my main force, and fall back the outlying units onto the main force. I'll try to outflank with the kroot bomb into the outlying flank to help slow the opponent's advance. Yes, I know people will pull this apart, but as a basic structure, it's served me well. (no plan survives contact with the enemy, etc...)

I like krootox, but for their points, I'd rather buy something else. Plus of course the deleterious effects on Kroot abilities makes them not all that attractive.

I never seem to have problems finding terrain to hide suits, even if it's my opponent's wrecked vehicles! JSJing over your kroot is also an option.

So getting back to anti-horde...get yourself as much distance as possible, concentrate your fire, consider kroot as anti-GEq, and don't expect FWs to generate enough firepower to wipe out hordes.

I know that no one really likes the CIB, but against GEQ, it is really good. 5 shots at BS 4 or 5 with a Shas'o generally leads to 4 hits and about 3 wounds. Not a overall solution, but a way to get a bit more anti-horde if you are coming up just short. Compared to 2 wounds per turn with a burst cannon, during a game vs. GEQ's you will more than earn back the points difference from a Burst Cannon.

This is not correct at all.

At BS 4, you average 3.333 hits and 1.6666 wounds (0.833 wounds if they have a cover save).

At BS 5, you average 4.16 hits and 2.08 wounds (1.04 if they have a cover save).

It should be obvious that your math is wrong when you're claiming that a STR 3 weapon gets three wounds out of four hits against a T3 target.

(Oh, and the BC gives exactly the same results against GEQs, so you're also wrong about that part).



That's a pretty bad general rule, for two reasons:

1) It ignores the fact that not all STR 5+ shots are equal. For example, I think everyone would agree that IG melta vets in a Vendetta are an awesome unit, but at 230 points for 6x shots they fail your general rule by a huge margin. Why are they still good? Because they're incredibly lethal against vehicles, and they're wounding anything outside an Apocalypse game on a 2+ with no armor saves allowed. They may produce fewer shots than a unit that follows your rule, but they're likely to score more kills than a unit that passes the rule by shooting nothing but STR 5 weapons.

2) It focuses purely on volume of fire against infantry and ignores everything else (FNP MEQs, vehicles, etc). There are just a lot of targets that volume of fire is worthless against, and focusing only on the 1 per 10 rule neglects those other targets.



Yeah, but the problem with Fire Warriors is that they don't offer anything besides anti-horde shooting. Kroot give you the same results per point in the shooting phase, and they're a lot better as meatshields when you don't have a horde to deal with.



Orks are always in cover (KFF), or you've already won the game.

IG jumping out of a Chimera are always in cover because 50% of the unit is in base contact with area terrain (the vehicle wreck). And in any case, IG in a Chimera are not a horde unit. The IG horde is a power blob, with 20-50 models running up the table to stab you to death.

Troops guarding an objective should be in cover, because giving a vulnerable unit a cover save should be a high priority when you're placing them. Even if you can't manage to get them some cover normally, you should be moving some other units into position to hide them.



Sure they are. Kroot should always have a 4+ save (better if there are trees on the table) just like Fire Warriors, and an extra 6" of range is pretty much worthless when most targets are either outside 30" or inside 24" (and they're usually inside 24" after their first movement phase).

Are you saying Ork armies that don't take KFFs just auto-lose to Tau?

Well, that might be true actually, come to think of it.


50-strong squads of IG tend not to fit in cover.


Having trouble envisioning this. If there's an objective with no cover available around it, then occupying it means putting units out of cover. Or, screening them, the screening unit would then be out of cover. Because if they could screen from in cover, that cover would cover the squad holding the objective...? [Obviously there are occasional exceptions, when you can put like half of a squad in cover, and stick the other half out for screening. But that's not always available.] So either way this presents an uncovered target.

I guess I didn't make it clear...my guide is just for just for putting Tau lists together, and it's only a rough guide at best. We could both sit down and come up with specific cases to tear any generaliztion down. I use it more as a limiter...if I'm tempted to load up on gear, I run that guide as a "filter" and if I"m not getting enough shots, then I review what I've taken.

I'd agree. If your ork opponent hasn't taken a KFF, you're pretty much going to win. infantry getting a 5+, vehicles count as obscured...you'd be nuts not to take it. I've seen plenty of ork players take two of them.

As a Tau player, you want to put as many objectives as possible in plain sight if you can. I'd agree, it's very hard for an IG player to hide 50+ bodies in cover (to be precise, more than 50% of their unit's models), and by placing objectives in the open, you force your opponent to give up cover to hold it.

Again though, you need to ask yourself if the 50+ models are worth all the fuss. Only 1 kp, or 1 objective...if there's more objectives, let them stew. And one brewed-up chimera is one kp too.

Maybe not quite auto-lose, but the KFF is so absurdly effective that it's a safe bet that any horde ork player who doesn't take one and use it effectively is just bad at 40k, and an easy win. Likewise, if you manage to kill the KFF(s), the orks lose a huge part of their protection, and it gets a lot easier to stop the horde and win the game. The ork player knows this, and since the KFF is on an IC, it's usually going to be in a max-size squad of boyz. By the time you've killed the meatshields and reached the KFF, you've already killed such a large part of their army that you're probably well on your way to victory.

So, for all practical purposes, orks will always have a cover save from some combination of KFF(s), other orks, and the wall of walkers.



Sure they do. Remember, you only have to put half the models in cover, and while a full 50-man blob is hard to hide, it's still very possible to get 25 models touching area terrain or behind Chimeras/etc. And don't forget that the 50 guardsmen are just meatshields for the power weapon sergeants and commissars, so even if you kill 45 of them, the survivors are going to assault you and kill your unit.



Well, first of all there shouldn't be too many objectives with no cover if you're playing a horde list. Your opponent gets to place half of them, and any horde player knows that they want a cover save against a shooting army. And since you only need a one-objective lead to win the game, they can just hold the ones in cover and contest enough of the others.

And remember that we're talking about a horde army. If I want to claim an objective, I can put half (well, more so I can take losses and keep my cover) of my unit in base contact with area terrain and spread the other half out in a line to reach the objective. Let's say I have a 30-man IG blob squad. I put 25 models in or touching the area terrain, and that leaves enough models to claim any objective within about 18" of the terrain. And if you've got large open areas where there's no terrain within 18" of an objective, you aren't playing with enough terrain.

This is pretty much what happened when I first fought an Ork player, after like 6 months of straight marines of various flavors. (Strawberry (BA), Chocolate (Black Templars), Vanilla, and I can't think of a good flavor for GK.) I got stomped because I didn't have enough shots to deal with the horde, though I did possess two Deathrain squads with flamers. Wasn't nearly enough. (Amusingly, the SMT I was using back then did the most damage.)

So I use the AFP now. It makes Orks cry, as it removes that KFF advantage, at an 18" range. And throws lots of hits which also break their meager armor. Many a time the exchange has gone
Me: "Ok, so that's six hits... *roll* and four wounds from the AFP."
Opp: "Alright, so I get the KFF save..."
"Actually the AFP prevents cover saves. It's AP 6 as well, so you need 5+ or better armor."
"... Yeah, I don't have that... I guess four guys die then..."
"Unless you have an invul?"
"... No, I don't. Four guys die."
"Assault phase, or rather, the 'I-Run-Away-From-Green-Tide Phase', I'm 24" away now."

Rinse+Repeat. Really wish we could have more than one of these beauties. I wouldn't complain about a smidge more range, either. As it is, it's adequate. Very good against hordes, but rather dismal against anything else. If you have room for one, there's nothing I can recommend more strongly for anti-horde.

Yeah, hopefully it gets made general issue or our missiles pods get a similar style of warhead in the next codex.

In the meantime, may I suggest the Hazard Suit with Pulse Submunition Rifles?

One slight problem here: four kills against a unit of 30 boyz (with several more identical units next to it) per turn isn't all that impressive, especially since you've only got 2-3 turns to kill all of them before they reach you. It's a nice weapon, sure, but don't expect a single AFP to really be a game changer for you.

And I second the recommendation of the XV9 with dual pulse submunition rifles. It's effectively two AFP shots per turn (but better), and they don't suffer from the special issue problem.

Yep Hazard suits work well but will cost you a lot of money and points but has a much better equivalent to the AFP and don’t tent to instant die from one of the lucky str 8 weapons flying around the table.
But to field a full squad will set you back around 300+ points depending on configuration and the best part of £100 including postage.
Commander Shas’o r’alai from the new IA apocalypse second edition is worth a look as well.

Pathfinders are an good option to use for removing cover saves and increase the BS of the fairing unit doing the damage not to mention pinning is good to but it dose depend on how many hits you get.

I agree with the submunition rifles. They are expensive, but worth it. I possess only a single XV-9 model, and it was second-hand... He's got PIGs, I believe. I do think it would be worth my time to look into acquiring more XV-9's.

Four guys truly isn't a lot, you're right.
However there's no other (single) gun that will take out four guys in one shot, reliably, at 18". The closest is the CIB. Runner-up is the Flamer, but you have to get closer for that. Oh, and the Submunition shot of the hammerhead, which is a really good reason to have one of those, just in case.

I'm also assuming the Ork player is actually spacing his units out. If they do that 'lol, pile o' units' you'll be hitting quite a bit more.

Hi all. Am fairly new to the board officially, but I have lurked here for a few years. I thought I would share a battle I had with my friend an ork player.

I baited him successfully with a 10 man kroot squad, which he decimated on a charge with his 20 man boys squad. I killed a few but he annihilated mine the first turn. Rolling a 1 for his comsolidation move he ended up stuck completely in the open and bunched.

My turn came along and I jumped my battlesuits into strike range, my leader with his bodyguard mounting a plasma rifle and missile pod on the leader and a twin linked missile pod and single burst cannon on the 2 bodyguards. My secondary battlesuit squad then jumped into position, the TL armed with an air bursting frag launcher and burst cannon, and the other two suits armed with twin linked burst cannon and flamers.

These two squads plus a shot down 10 man squad of fire warriors in rapid fire range destroyed his 20 boys with shots to spare. After that he clung to the terrain and never came in strike range again.

The rest of the battle was essentially me shooting him to pieces with my superior range.

Obviously this isn't a standard armament deployment that most players would use but it works especially well for me.

Personally I feel that massed fire warriors are the best choice regardless of the opponent or mission. I have found their high strength weapons to be extremely useful on light armoire, even crippling a space marine dreadnought in one turn with masses pulse rifle fire.

I will get around to posting a 2k tournament list I used that mutually supported each element and successfully held off each opponent I faced during the tournament. I actually held out against a rather OP Daemon list that kept popping up in my deployment just by being able to re position my suits to support my 4x12 man fire warrior teams.

Hope my thoughts help out. Personally out of all the infantry in the game the humble firewarrior is the best one I have used. They might fall over in a slight breeze in close combat but the average fire warrior with a pulse rifle is stronger than most base infantry at range every time. If you have a team leader with a bonding knife and max out the squad the sheer number of shots they put out outweighs the BS3 statline.

So, what were the other 100+ boyz doing while the single unit massacred your Kroot?



I should hope so, given that the units you used cost way more than a single small unit of boyz.



In other words, you got lucky and faced a poor ork player who didn't understand that you will always take casualties getting close, and playing defensively to avoid them just ensures that you lose the game. Orks can not win at range, and any strategy that involves keeping your army out of strike range is a stupid one no matter what "benefits" you think you're getting.

The correct strategy would have been to use a KFF and walkers to provide a 4+ cover save to the boyz even without terrain, and to aggressively rush at you as fast as possible.



Until you face mech IG with 15+ Chimeras that your Fire Warriors can't even attempt to shoot.



Dread armor: AV 12.

Pulse rifle strength: STR 5.

So, could you explain just how you managed to roll a 7 or better on a D6 to do anything to the dread?



Except for Kroot*. Or IG veterans with melta guns in a Chimera/Vendetta. Or Grey Hunters in a Razorback. Or Grey Knights with psybolt ammo (oh hey, my basic gun is better than a pulse rifle). Etc.



*If you spend equal points on each unit, Kroot shoot just as well as Fire Warriors against non-vehicle targets and are way better than Fire Warriors in every other attribute.

Wow quick reply, ok to clarify:

The other 100+ boyz didn't exist he had sunk a lot of troops into stormboyz, which died early on from my fire warriors and battle suits targeting them as they closed, the second boyz squad he had camping an objective in his deployment zone, they died later. A large chunk of his points were put into two keyed up battle wagons which were taken out with Railheads and Broadsides, and a Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun attached to a Grot Kannon Squad. Think that is the name for the Grot guns. Havent got a copy of the Ork Dex with me atm.

The bulk of his points he sunk into a large squad of Bikers including his warboss which stormed across the table and were also cut down by massed firepower. This particular opponent had never faced Tau before and underestimated their capacity to dish out a large volume of shots each turn. I have regularly been wasted by him since after he learnt the capabilities of my units. The games are a lot more even and I never field that combination of battle suits anymore.

The fire warriors vs Dread was a squad deployed from a Devilfish that got rear armour shots. So that is the answer to that question. I should have been clear in my original post.

I understand your comments about the IG, however none of my friends play IG and I am not in a gaming club so I have never faced a Guard army. All of my opponents play marines, one plays Orks and the last plays Eldar.

Kroot when I have used them have been killed fairly quickly. The terrain we use does not include woods, being mainly a desert/city environment. This has negated a lot of the Kroots advantages. Currently I have a few Kroot Hounds and a Krootox that I need to assemble to field a different force to test out different combinations. Finding the time for gaming lately has been somewhat problematic however.

These comments I made have been purely based on my personal experiences and I realize that the broader community would have different experiences. My regular force always includes 3 Firewarrior Teams, one mounted in a Devil Fish to attack or re-deploy as needed. I have found this combination works for me against my opponents quite well, and I change the rest of the army to suit or test as I play each game.

I think this says it all. Your victory had a lot more to do with your opponent's mistakes than anything good about your anti-horde capabilities.



Even so, how exactly did it happen?

Did the marine player use it as a suicide unit, in which case its death is pretty much inevitable and your ability to kill it doesn't say a whole lot? Or did the marine player screw up and let you do it? I really don't see how you could get into position without a mistake by your opponent. That Devilfish would have to fly past the dread (and the rest of your opponent's army), making it easy prey for the dread/melta/etc.

As a general rule, Fire Warriors are NOT going to be effective against a dread. It might happen with a lot of luck and/or mistakes by your opponent, but it's not something you should ever count on when you're creating your list and strategy.



Marines and Eldar are just as bad. You're going to regret taking a lot of Fire Warriors when you're facing a wall of Razorbacks (which you can only damage with a lot of luck) or Wave Serpents/Falcons (which are even more impossible to kill than Chimeras).



So just put them in normal cover. Even with a 4+ cover save they're still just as durable as Fire Warriors.

Ok the dread flanked unsupported, and he concentrated on killing a broadside team rather than the devil fish.

The ork player since has adapted his list and gone the more conventional flood of boys approach. He just plows across the table now en masse and rolls me in hand to hand. He has also become smarter and fields two 15 man loota squads in most of his lists now which are problematic to deal with. That fight turns into a war of attrition more often than not.

The Kroot has been a unit I haven't fielded for a while mainly because I haven't had too many successes with them in previous lists. Once I get another game though I have a couple of lists that include them that I want to try out.

Luckily my marine and chaos friends don't use a lot of armour in their lists. However the eldar player does use his grab tanks extremely well. He has however played that army for longer than I have played the game and has repeatedly entered and placed highly in tournaments. Most of my games are against large numbers of infantry and my lists reflect that.

This is precisely the reason that two of my heavy slots are occupied by railheads and only one by a BASS team. Two pieplates and thirty kroot works just fine for me, most of the time. Calling the random scattering of incidental S5 shooting (like the six fire warriors) in the average tau list "horde control" is like calling the random scattering of stormbolters on rhinos in a marine list "horde control." They certainly contribute a little, but they fall well short of being a satisfactory answer, and relying on them to solve the problem is nothing more than whistling past the graveyard. You need deliberate preparation for the eventuality that you'll face a horde list. Taking a list that's tailored towards facing mechanized space marines and just hoping to muddle through against anything else is not a valid plan.

I am intrigued by the AFP as part of the solution, though...having access to just one is really limiting. I'd take a closer look at it if it remained special issue, but the 0-1 restriction were lifted. I could see crisis teams where the leader suit gets the same loadout as the rest of the team, but the MT is moved to hardwired and the third hardpoint goes to an AFP. That would let the teams, for a reasonable price, pack an anti-horde weapon without sacrificing anti-MEQ utility. Even better would be AFP as a pricey replacement to missiles on broadsides...

This does help, and it's the way I usually run myself. I do think it's important to note, though, that whether you can get away with this depends heavily on your local meta. I'm lucky in that people around here don't tend to go for really heavily mechanized armies usually; if you're in that situation, and horde lists are reasonably common, it's a logical approach, but you do have to realize that you'll be at a *severe* disadvantage against really hardcore mech.



This is actually exactly what I do; a team leader with the AFP on a third hardpoint. It's not really anti-*horde* specifically - you'd need to be able to take more than one. What I find it *does* let me do is not to bust hordes, but to help remove that *one* critical squad off an objective or similar. It doesn't make much difference against a true horde list, but against a more normal list it adds an extra tool to the bag (especially since pathfinders are usually long dead by that point).

That all sounds pretty reasonable. But in all honesty, it's just not as fun as out-hording them with Fire Warriors.

As a hardcore mech player myself (my IG spam 9 chimmies, 2 hellhounds, and 4 russes in 1850), I have to say that the disadvantage isn't really that great. It really just requires more thoughtful targeting. With my 15 vehicles, if you pop the right ones on turn one, you can seriously hamstring me by killing just four of them. The idea that you need to destroy 2/3 of a mech player's tanks on turn one and the rest by turn two at the latest is a bit flawed. The more vehicles an enemy has, the more they get in each other's way. An immobilized or stunned tank is impassible terrain to other vehicles. Add in the congestion that goes up exponentially with each additional vehicle over, say, six, and the effects of normal terrain, and it can take till turn four for a seriously meched up player to bring the bulk of his force to bear even if you don't pop his cans. Now, if by "mech" you mean 3-4 rhino chassis and 2-3 proper tanks, well, then you can't count on them impeding one another, but at the same time, 4-5 railguns and a couple of pirhana are sufficient (though not as overwhelming as 7-9 railguns).