I used to use stealths in place of crisis quite a lot before I had enough crisis suits and to be honest I think they generally worked well if used correctly, my one main bit of advice for using stealth units is to always attack a flank or isolated unit.

People often say that stealths aren't all that great as to attack they have to be within range to be attacked back, I personally think that this is seeing the SFG in the wrong light, it’s not to defend against the unit you are attacking (that would be terribly overpowered for a start) it’s to cover you from taking fire from their whole army. If you're attacking a flank its likely only the unit you’re going for will be able to see you but if you attack large groups or charge in the middle you're opening your stealths up for reprisal from multiple units.

Overall as others have said I think stealths can be competitive with crisis but you need different tactics, they are not a straight swap.

Also after mulling it over while reading this topic I've decided to switch a unit of stealths back in to my 1500+ lists for a while.

Ah, woops that was unclear. The hammerhead and piranha both were aiming to kill the landraider, but the piranha succeeded with its shot, so the hammerhead targeted and killed the dreadnought instead. I edited the text so everything is (hopefully) clearer.

As for the failsafe detonator, I want to reread the rules before I say anything definitively, but I'm pretty sure it is triggered simply by losing combat and failing the morale check. It's BEFORE the sweeping advance rolls. I'll check that though, since ambiguity might arise from the detonator being a 4th ed wargear piece in Fifth edition.

And I have many issues with using gun drones. First off, shield drones have I 4 as well as T4 and better saves. Second, the idea of having drones so they die negates the point of having I 4 when the time to run away comes around...

Also, Aun Tier, an Ethereal can't be used with Farsight... Of course, if you're suggesting an Ethereal for the general case of using a FSD, that's ok.

A further comment on the use of the FSD: It does require losing in CC then failing a morale check. However, the reason so many drones are around is so that you can lose just a few drones (and a wound maybe on each suit), and then kill 2-3 enemies w/ Farsight, then escape and destroy them. Of course, sometimes the unit just wins in CC. I had a game vs an Ultramarines player where that unit ripped through a tactical squad where Calgar was hiding (without termie armour) and then beat Calgar's face in. It was pretty bad all around for the SM, but a scenario in which the FSD not being used was a GOOD thing.

Basically, the FSD is like our own version of defensive Hit and Run, and in some ways works better.

Cheers!

For the lower average toughness, it would only happen with one suit with two drones. Two suits with two drones you use the majority toughness. With no majority, you use the higher one. Therefore, majority I4, majority T4

Also, since this thread has taken the direction of a thread about using stealths, and SFG, I think an appropriate list to sum up the contents would be:

HQ:

Shadowsun-175

Elites:

6x Stealth, 2x FB-184
6x Stealth, 2x FB-184


Troops:

6x Fire Warriors, Devilfish w/ D-pod-145
6x Fire Warriors, Devilfish w/ D-pod-145
10x Kroot-70
10x Kroot-70

Fast Attack:

4x Pathfinders, D-fish w/ D-pod-145
4x Pathfinders, D-fish w/ D-pod-145
2x Piranhas w/ FB, TA, 1 w/ D-pod-145

Heavy Support:

3x Sniper Teams-240
2x Broadsides, 2x TA, TL w/ 2x SD, Bonding Knife-200
Hammerhead w/ Railgun, SMS, MT, DP-175

TOTAL: 1999

Except the kroot and the Broadsides, everything in this army is cloaked in some way, be it Disruption Pods or SFG, and kroots have their stealth-in-forests/jungle thing, so if you're playing with trees, then you have only the broadsides exposed, and they are so tough it's not that big an issue. Plus, 72" range. Also, 6 units can infiltrate. If you played with the idea and with a PosR commander, you could have your entire army arrive all together outflanking on turn 5.

I was actually talking about the general case of using an FSD, but sorry for being unclear. Also, fair point about the Shield Drones and the higher toughness, a bit of a blip on my part.

As for the FSD, I have the codex with me, and it says that the enemy may not make a sweeping advance.

For your presented list im2randomghgh, being a topic about Unorthodox units, it may be worth swapping the Broadsides out for an Ionhead.

Or a Skyray. Speaking of which (since this is after all about the less used units), does anyone have any experience in effectively using Skyrays as of recent? I personally have found them to be useful rapid-response units, hanging around my deployment zone and markerlighting any pesky deep strikers. It is abysmal as an anti-armour platform however, although this is largely due to my equally terrible luck when hitting and penetrating vehicles with Skyray launched seeker missiles.

I tried a Skyray once, with a whole set of Sniper Teams too. The Snipers were great, but I managed to fire three Skyray missiles (didn't want to waste them on 10 point infantry) across 5 turns. Part of that probably has to do with how I was fighting Dark Eldar and killed most of their transports first turn, but still... I'm not really sure what to do with it. It's ostensibly a support platform, but it can't reliably launch more than a missile (if that) each turn by itself; what do you use to markerlight for it? And what do you have it shoot at? I feel like an Ionhead can engage very similar targets, but more reliably and independently. (The Skyray apocalypse formation is pretty rad, though.)

Sniper Teams, though, are great. Their stealth field makes them essentially invulnerable to shooting ('cept for scatter), don't put them in your main block and watch out for outflankers and they'll pay for themselves. Probably not as point-efficient as Broadsides pay for themselves, but I've liked what my sniper teams did every time I've fielded them.

In all honesty I believe that the skyray is just a very survivable markerlight platform. There are enough lights in im2randomghgh's sample list for a seeker missile alpha strike and plenty of vehicles to mount them on. I would consider, using the pathfinder devilfish for the fire warriors. That frees up 170 points. 80 could then be used on seekers while the remaining points could be spent on a smaller stealth team or a third broadside. I know the purpose of this thread is to use unorthodox units but the broadsides are for dealing with things that absolutely must die.

I envision im2randomghgh's list working something like this. Shadowsun and stealths infiltrate to eighteen inches on the flank, kroot infiltrate to twenty-four inches (Horde or mech.) Piranhas deploy as far forward as possible on the same flank as the suits. Pathfinders will have found a good spot to light up targets and fire warriors will sit in their devilfish. Broadsides and hammerhead set up in one corner while sniper drones set up in the other, preferably in cover.

Piranhas move in to block transports and maybe take one or two out. Shadowsun goes in to open fire, hopefully destroying a couple. If in range, sniper teams will try for some side armour shots or pin some infantry with help from marker lights, while the broadsides also let rip. Once troops are exposed both stealth teams also jump in and will target infantry with burst cannons and more transports with fusion blasters. The kroot and hammerhead then fire on (hopefully) more exposed infantry. All suits jump back.

Piranhas will hopefully be blocking transports or LOS from the enemy for a turn giving you a little more breathing room. Stealth field generators and cover should protect you from the far flank. Hopefully you will have made a significant dent in your opponent's army and they will be able to do little to retaliate. It seems to me, to be a very effective list (at least in theory). I don't suppose anyone here regularly plays at the 2000 point level and has the models to give it a spin?

Oh, and we might want to keep actual list discussion to a minimum, we don't want this thread locked

I've never really considered seekers worthwhile in an army that is packed to the brim with good anti-tank weapons, I think using the marker to increase BS for a broadside or death rain is more logical.

I do however use a whole lot of hunter-killers in my Sisters armies, this is because unlike Tau SOB have very limited ranged anti-mech and so really need the boost.

They do have a great alpha strike potential and can really do some damage in the most important first few rounds so it might not be so crazy after all however the need for so many marker lights really hampers the seeker alpha strike when compared to H-Ks even if they do have a better chance to hit, personally I don't use any vehicles at all with my current tau lists so I guess it's a moot point either way for me.

Personally I run a Skyray in my list and while there may be some better choices for the points it almost always makes up its points cost or close to it in the games I've played. Basically, the way I run it is first turn I move it 12 inches up the side of the board and in best case scenarios I target the side of 2 transports (With markerlights followed by seekers) and an AV 10 vehicle. I think the best I've done so far was wreck-immobilise-stun (The stun was a melta land-speeder hiding out of LOS behind a building my kroot came in next turn and turned it into glance cheese) and any time one model can possibly make 3 vehicles useless next turn (Or just kill them outright) is a good thing. I do this as my opening move as it severely changes my target priority of my broadsides if I get a good decent volley.

Basically, my point with the Skyray is that it is terrible at killing things outright but it's true usefulness come in firing at multiple vehicles and slowing the advance of the enemy transport rush filled with veteran meltas, boyz squads, and stuff you don't want near you (Although a group of longfangs will do the same cheaper and better, oh codex creep, at least they can't move 12" and shoot or my head would explode...just wait for the FAQ). Anyways, I of course admit the unit is somewhat sub-par in our heavy support choked army but it also gives you the ability to run 3 Heavy supports in a Farsight list if you where so inclined (I don't but there's plenty of Farsight players out there) and it just looks so darn cool.

One thing that could work with that list, too, is to use a pathfinder devilfish and a posiitonal relay together to have hyper-accurate melta-range deepstrikes...5 deepstriking meltas, plus ablative wounds/BC is scary!

Far as seekers go, they've got a 6.94% chance of killing an AV12 unit and a 3.47% of taking out an AV13/Holofield unit. At 10 points this means you'll break even at using them on a 144pt AV 12 unit or a 288 point AV13/Holofield one (assuming we counteract the benefits of glancing hits and damaged vehicles with the additional cost of one turn's attention from the ML unit).

There's admittedly force multipliers involved with potentially being able to take out a ton of sub-144pts transports on the first turn, but I think those are well included within the points values of markerlights outside the fast attack slot and the fact you'll probably not do that anyway (35% chance of a Skyray taking out a AV12 vehicle assuming it can get off all it's missiles). Even against AV 11 you're looking at a 48% chance of success (10.4% per missile)

Against the same AV 12 vehicle, one turn of Hammerhead shooting nets a 37% chance of equivalent success. Thought to put it in perspective, a Skyray alpha strike is equivalent to two Railgun Hammerhead shots if it weren't for the AP1 (but due to the AP1, is drastically outclassed once you get to the second turn).

As a markerlight platform, I'd much prefer a TA Tetra with it's four, fast (and scout), BS4 MLs + 60 points of missiles elsewhere for 10 points less and in fast attack. The Skyray at the moment is very much for tournament situations where you are expecting to lose all your tanks by the second turn. I really can't think of many other instances where there's not 25 points I'd rather cut from elsewhere in order to upgrade a Skyray to a Hammerhead. There's a very specific situation for a Skyray, and I can't think it'll come up often.

As I posted a little bit back, I'm planning to play a handful of battles using unorthodox styles of army lists. This is far from completed, but I had my first battle with one of them today, and it actually went rather well. I won't go into details yet, but it was 1000pts Pitched Battle Annihilation (VP). My opponent didn't look like he was an exceptionally experienced player, but he seemed to use a fairly standard list, I didn't notice any major blunders of his and he played with reasonable skill. The list I used focused on Gun Drone Squadrons, Kroot, and Stealth Teams. I played an army that was fully reserved/outflanking/deep-striking.

The final result was Tau score: roughly 400vps. Guard score: roughly 200vps.

The game only lasted to the end of his 4th turn (I didn't have my 4th turn) as we had to leave the venue. I was still waiting on my Crisis Battle-suit Commander and one Stealth battlesuit team to deep-strike and one unit of Kroot to outflank. Seeing as I didn't even have my full force on the table, most of his hard hitting units were gone, and I was already in the lead with only a Gun Drone team and Kroot Squadron lost, I'm pretty happy with the performance of this list. I'm planning to play a few more battles with this to check that it wasn't a fluke, but I thought it was a pleasing first result.
I'm dreading the match-up with a Dark Eldar player, as all of the Math hammer I'm running through my head leads to certain doom, but nonetheless it wouldn't be a fair experiment if a avoided the scarier lists!

I'll post back with more results and a battle report when I am able.

Thank you Aun Tier. Can't wait to hear how the rest go. If you get the first turn you should do well against Dark Eldar. Infiltrating kroot and stealth suits should at least damage their raiders. Remember, you might want marker lights for dealing with those flicker fields.