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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 11 2012 02:20 
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STS17 wrote:
Nan'sha wrote:
O'Ka'mesa wrote:
@tehlegend: That kind of combination isn't going to happen as it's impossible to take Special Characters as allies so for example a Battlesuit Commander+Farseer is a go, Shadowsun+generic Chapter Master is a go but Marneus Calgar and say Ursurkar Creed isn't possible.


That's simply not true, I'm afraid. Aside from the requirement that there be 1 HQ and 1 Troop, and the ability to add up to 1 more Troop and 1 Elite, FA or HS choice, there are no restrictions on what models can be taken as Allies.


I will second this - I have yet to see any text in the rulebook that says we can't take special characters as allies. If you have found some, please feel free to point it out (and provide the source - preferably a quote with a page number).


My apologies, a friend of mine on another site who is usually spot on with his insights said that it was not possible and stated a quote and page but it was later pointed out that his interpretation was incorrect. As i said he's usually spot on so I had no reason to doubt him and with it being stated on various sights that it's confirmed as not being possible I was mistaken and should have known better.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 11 2012 02:34 
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Not to worry my friend! It's a new edition and there are a lot of new (and sometimes subtle) changes that we are all getting used to, it's a lot to take in and misinterpretations or oversights are more or less to be expected from time to time. I just learned last night that you can't declare a charge on a vehicle you can't hurt! Now I can't charge an immobile leman russ to hide behind it. :(

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 11 2012 09:58 
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Sorry if this isn't the right place, but can Eldar Fast skimmers with Star Engines now move 30" in the shooting phase?

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 12 2012 01:13 
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im2randomghgh wrote:
Sorry if this isn't the right place, but can Eldar Fast skimmers with Star Engines now move 30" in the shooting phase?


If what I've heard is correct then yes that's the jist of it, a 42" movement all in all with Star Engines. Can someone confirm this?

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 12 2012 02:28 
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SparkSovereign wrote:
STS17 wrote:
Also, anyone crying over bad allies combinations (Farsight with Ork allies!) better be cutting their wrists as Draigo vs. Draigo games (or any other such game)


Thank you for understanding that... I've been bringing that up every time fluff is mentioned. There are fluffy games and non-fluffy games. If you are playing a fluffy game, you are not electing to use any of the weirder combinations without an actually decent reason (and reasons or precedent can be found for everything on the list, though some are easier than others). If you aren't playing a fluffy game, why the hell do you care? Either way, most of the concerns presented don't strike me as valid.

As for "a demon prince working with Calgar", first note that SM+chaos are in the "not before the apocalypse" category, and thus cannot ally. If they both showed up in the same force as allied contingents (of, say, Tau) I would expect the two would be maneuvering to deal with the numerically superior threat (the guys on the other side of the table), hoping to get the other guy killed in the process, and if not, whittling down the number of "other" units so that there would be less opposition when they attacked each other. Do not mistake two sides shooting the same enemy as "trust". Even an SM-Tau "battle brothers" alliance probably boils down to "you're honorable enough not to stab me in the back while the other guy breathes, so we'll work with you first" outside of exceptionally unusual circumstances.

I swear, people like to claim this rule has all sorts of corollary abuses that are simply ridiculous. It's like they aren't even bothering to think of alternative explanations. IG+Chaos alliance availability is the best one; we all know that doesn't imply the two factions are friends, but rather lets you play a Traitor Guard force. Why do I feel like I'm the only one who even considers applying that same logic to the others?



Oh sorry, i did know about the SM+CSM allies being not before the apoc, I was merely using it as an extreme example as there I have seen many kids at my local store using the CSM+SM as allies, I didn't mean they could do it normally so i apologize for the misunderstanding.


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 12 2012 02:51 
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MrDark12 wrote:
Oh sorry, i did know about the SM+CSM allies being not before the apoc, I was merely using it as an extreme example as there I have seen many kids at my local store using the CSM+SM as allies, I didn't mean they could do it normally so i apologize for the misunderstanding.


It's fine, rules are still new and all. I think a lot of the negativity will die down after people get a chance to play with it more, speaking from experience with Warhammer Fantasy here; I was pretty upset about the changes of 8th edition, especially the magic system, but that evaporated after I got my first game in. Sure, there were some logical oddities like the comparative power of one Slann and ten Slann, but I've never seen more than one Slann in someone's collection, let alone on the table, so who cares?


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 13 2012 02:07 
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SparkSovereign wrote:
MrDark12 wrote:
Oh sorry, i did know about the SM+CSM allies being not before the apoc, I was merely using it as an extreme example as there I have seen many kids at my local store using the CSM+SM as allies, I didn't mean they could do it normally so i apologize for the misunderstanding.


It's fine, rules are still new and all. I think a lot of the negativity will die down after people get a chance to play with it more, speaking from experience with Warhammer Fantasy here; I was pretty upset about the changes of 8th edition, especially the magic system, but that evaporated after I got my first game in. Sure, there were some logical oddities like the comparative power of one Slann and ten Slann, but I've never seen more than one Slann in someone's collection, let alone on the table, so who cares?


Yeah, I agree, once everyone has settled in with the new rules everything should slide into place. I've tried a few games already but they were far longer than they needed to be (had to stop every 5 mins to check new rules).
But overall I like the allies system, its GW way to sell more models, ok, but still its nice way to add more favor and more fluff to your army.


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 13 2012 08:08 
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I also like how allies have been implemented. Moreover, I haven't really come across any allies combinations that are extremely cheesy or blatantly overpowered, and in most cases they don't allow someone to do something totally crazy.

Perhaps one of the smellier ones I've seen is a Blood Angels Librarian with Fear the Darkness and a Public Broadcasting Station (Psyker Battle Squad) hitting the same unit. PBS reduces Ld to 2 and the Librarian forces a morale test with a -2 penalty to leadership. They need Insane Heroisim to not run off the board.

The catch here is they need two psychic tests and you can deny the witch twice in an attempt to counteract the combination so it's hardly a guarantee.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 13 2012 03:49 
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They need two psychic tests, and two failed Deny the Witch rolls, yes. They also need a librarian within 24" who doesn't have any more pressing use for his psychic powers, and a PBS with clear line of sight to their target, meaning all those squishy T3/5+ models are in serious danger of being pulse rifled into the waiting arms of their Emperor for standing around in the open. And it requires at least ninety points of PBS and a hundred points of Librarian, to boot.

It's not a bad trick, if you can pull it off. But like a lot of Allies shenanigans it mostly just seems like it would be easier to buy more guns and knives, rather than tricks.


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 13 2012 04:35 
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Nan'sha wrote:
They need two psychic tests, and two failed Deny the Witch rolls, yes. They also need a librarian within 24" who doesn't have any more pressing use for his psychic powers, and a PBS with clear line of sight to their target, meaning all those squishy T3/5+ models are in serious danger of being pulse rifled into the waiting arms of their Emperor for standing around in the open. And it requires at least ninety points of PBS and a hundred points of Librarian, to boot.

It's not a bad trick, if you can pull it off. But like a lot of Allies shenanigans it mostly just seems like it would be easier to buy more guns and knives, rather than tricks.


It's not really a trick. The PBS doesn't really have much better to do than reduce the Ld of some unit so it runs away. They will have a chimera (or two) to hide in and only a single model needs to be moved into LoS, which could be done on the turn they are going to use their power anyways.

The Librarian's psychic power use for this case gets reserved until after the PBS has succeeded in their check. And I can't think of many better uses then immediately causing a squad to flee, potentially right off the board, for a psychic power. This is more abusable given how charging a unit that is falling back works as well. The unit makes another morale test (on the lowered leadership from the PBS) and if they fail that one they're immediately swept up and taken off the battlefield. If not, oh well, you're still a librarian in an assault squad attacking something on the charge - that's not really a bad situation to be in.

It's not a gimmick, since it requires no commitment from the player and works no matter how prepared the opponent is. Fighting a Fearless army? Swap the Librarian powers out for the new disciplines.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Jul 13 2012 10:41 
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The only really annoying combination I have had to face so far was IG with Manticore spam, two of which were placed in terrain on the corners in such a fashion as to make them literally physically impossible to get a TLoS on, paired with draigo+paladins.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 02 2012 09:31 
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So I tried to find another mention of this but for some reason I have not found it brought up... So Many (including myself) are considering taking eldar as allies for mainly Eldrad/Rangers/Bikes depending who you talk to but something I was wondering if wouldn’t go a long way to solving out AA problems is a Dark Reaper exarch with fast shot on a Icarus Lascannon? I know it’s a decent point sink but that’s 2 Lascannon shots which great BS at fliers each turn. Not to mention on turns you’re not shooting at a flyer (should be 3-4 turns because of interceptor rules) you can still reach out and touch something like you mean it... I have not built a list with this in it yes and realize it’s a decent point sink but it’s also a decent AA option. Thoughts? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 02 2012 09:52 
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How would you load that squad out? Also, why Ic-Las instead of a Quad gun?


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 02 2012 09:55 
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Umm mostly i would go min # of reapers and then give the Exarch Fast shot which is the main reason for the icarus over quad. Fast shot gets you much more benifit. If i was going with quad gun i would try and get fire dragons for Tank Hunter but the models besides exarch would just be a waste....


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 17 2012 10:44 
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For those looking to have a fast moving ally that is capable of taking down 3+ save threats in close combat, the Imperial Guard's Rough Riders are quite strong in this edition.

For 145 points, you get:

Mogul Kamir, the Rough Rider's upgrade character which grants the squad Furious Charge, Fearless, and Rage (the latter being the most important).
10 Models total which can use the Hunting Lance, a special close combat weapon that can be used once per game to allow the models to strike with the strength of a crisis suit and and an initiative one higher than a standard marine (including being AP3 for charging with a power lance). The Rage special rule means the entire unit is making 32 attacks on the charge, enough to wipe out a full tactical squad of marines or bring down a T6 W6 enemy (technically, it's an average of 5.333 wounds against a T6 model, but that's pretty dang close).

Oh, and they're cavalry so they're fast enough to be wherever you need them, when you need them.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 17 2012 11:11 
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STS17 wrote:
For those looking to have a fast moving ally that is capable of taking down 3+ save threats in close combat, the Imperial Guard's Rough Riders are quite strong in this edition.

For 145 points, you get:

Mogul Kamir, the Rough Rider's upgrade character which grants the squad Furious Charge, Fearless, and Rage (the latter being the most important).
10 Models total which can use the Hunting Lance, a special close combat weapon that can be used once per game to allow the models to strike with the strength of a crisis suit and and an initiative one higher than a standard marine (including being AP3 for charging with a power lance). The Rage special rule means the entire unit is making 32 attacks on the charge, enough to wipe out a full tactical squad of marines or bring down a T6 W6 enemy (technically, it's an average of 5.333 wounds against a T6 model, but that's pretty dang close).

Oh, and they're cavalry so they're fast enough to be wherever you need them, when you need them.


Idk i guess maybe its because i play tau so there poorly optimized against me but I have never seen Rough riders perform well. With the ability to move and rapid fire there probably going to suck up a round of max range shooting a round of rapid fire and a round of overwatch... with 10 models shooting thats 21ish hits against BS4 (which is most models with 3+ SV) now maybe im misssing something but that is usually going to end up with a squad of dead RR's... now you can use cover and everything else but with the rest of our army endeavoring to stay away from rapid fire range i don't see them being a worthwhile distraction or ever being able to carry a charge home.


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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 17 2012 11:18 
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I've only been able to read about half the thread, but quite frankly I'm surprised by the general consensus in the community.

Previously on ATT there was a large contingency of folks who loved playing Tau because of the allied alien concepts which were represented by Kroot and Vespid. No other armies had fluff like that. This new mechanic now allows the Tau army access to special rules that can be manipulated to work with existing fluff and opens up *massive* modelling and hobby options.

Who said that using Allies or even a codex for that matter requires you to use those set models? For a long time "count as" was a great opportunity to incorporate fantastic conversions and beautiful creations. Not happy with the Vespid rules? Perhaps allying with Eldar and using the Warp Spider rules are more fitting? No rules existing for the Touren? How about using the rules for IG vets? Mercenaries? The rules for Ogryn can be used to reflect a new Kroot beast or even the Gnarlocs. Until FW rules are FAQ'd in, and I'm sure they will be soon.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9796
There are a lot of alternate minis that can now be worked into the Tau universe using rules outside of our outdated codex. :)

Provided that you meet all of the requirements set out in the rules, those of us who love the fluff and modelling aspect of this hobby this is great. There are a lot of options to now actualize previous ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 20 2012 10:59 
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So I was going through my Ork codex and noticed something. The Bomb Squigs simply run at, and automatically hit, an enemy vehicle on a roll of a 2+. I checked the FAQ/Errata and didn't notice anything which indicated these guys can't simply run at a flier and hit them (and since there are no to-hit rolls involved, we don't care about Snap Shots) 5/6 of the time.

I'll be taking some as allies in our next tournament as an effective way to deal with fliers.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 20 2012 04:18 
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STS17 wrote:
So I was going through my Ork codex and noticed something. The Bomb Squigs simply run at, and automatically hit, an enemy vehicle on a roll of a 2+. I checked the FAQ/Errata and didn't notice anything which indicated these guys can't simply run at a flier and hit them (and since there are no to-hit rolls involved, we don't care about Snap Shots) 5/6 of the time.

I'll be taking some as allies in our next tournament as an effective way to deal with fliers.


If you don't use BS you can't snap shot which means you can't hit fliers.

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 Post subject: Re: 6th Edition Discussion: Allies
PostPosted: Aug 20 2012 05:21 
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STS17 wrote:
So I was going through my Ork codex and noticed something. The Bomb Squigs simply run at, and automatically hit, an enemy vehicle on a roll of a 2+. I checked the FAQ/Errata and didn't notice anything which indicated these guys can't simply run at a flier and hit them (and since there are no to-hit rolls involved, we don't care about Snap Shots) 5/6 of the time.

I'll be taking some as allies in our next tournament as an effective way to deal with fliers.


On that note, however, Orks make a superior counter assault unit to the standard Kroot/Hounds blob from our codex. 30 un-upgraded Boys, Slugga or Shoota, is 20 points cheaper than 20 Kroot with 10 Hounds and has much better staying power due to Mob Rule.

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