No need to apologise

Nothing was mentioned about ICs joining a Character's unit, so I presume that things like Glorious Intervention and Look Out, Sir! still work fine within that unit as well as from any other units (and their Characters) within range and the Character retains his (Ch) status - he can't leave the squad and join another, while the IC can swan about as they like so the Character is a constant. After all, compared to the unit he's in he's still a stand-out model but now with an IC picking up the leadership slack.

As interesting as this all is, I think it's also important to remember two things(No one get their feelings hurt, please.)

1) Heresay, rumors, etc etc, should hold absolutely zero, I repeat, ZERO, on the way any one of you, even you Mauler, on how the game is played. Despite the fact that important GW figures may be giving out these rulings, they are not official, not documentable and do not modify how any rules apply. Some I wish did, others I greatly disagree with, but that's just how it is.

2) I, personally, believe Mauler is indeed relaying these comments and rulings truthfully and correctly, because I have faith in humanity and our members. However, you have to also consider that, due to the internet and its nature, it is remotely possible that this is all fabricated. Unlikely? Yes. Possible? Very much yes. As such, again to point one^, you should not start printing this topic out and distributing to friends as a FAQ or "words from the GW Gods".


Sorry, I felt it was important to point this out and get everyone on track. Remember this is a discussion about things a few GW figures said in a discussion. They may point to the future, but for the most part, this entire topic and conversation is NOT about actual changes to gameplay. I say again, NOT.

Just to point out in addition to J'Kaara Nan's post, Their answer to number two here directly contradicts the current FAQ for our codex. The question "If a vehicle is reduced to Ballistic Skill 1 (because it is Shaken, Stunned, for example) do its seeker missiles fire at Ballistic Skill 1 or Ballistic Skill 5?" The answer in the FAQ: Ballistic Skill 5

Note that the two examples only allow the vehicle to fire Snap Shots - and shooting at fliers can only be done as snap shots (i.e. same mechanic, so the answer applies there as well).

It is entirely possible that their answers to these questions are just off-the-cuff answers as I doubt they had time to ponder them fully.

Its also entirely possible that they were just pulling his chain and having a really good laugh about it when he left the room.



Why would you have to double up the handicap of trying to hit a flyer? The markerlight hit on a 6+, so now the Seeker needs a 6+ too?

No no, this is a perfectly acceptable response to someone you don't know posting information with no written facts to back it up, I take no offense at all. I'm not sure what I could do to prove that I actually spoke to the game designers themselves (videoing it seemed a bit rude) aside from scanning and posting up my Jervis-signed ticket and rulebook? Even if I could prove that the info I provided is 100% from the devs (which I assure you it is - I have nothing personal to gain by fabricating anything) if players disagree with their verbal rulings they still could disregard them until FAQed. I have access to all the same units as you guys and I also want them to do their job at peak efficiency to crush my non-blue foes too!

The reason I asked questions and shared the responses was to try and settle some discussions on here that I had very little prior knowledge of as I've not been able to access this site for a while, hence me posting up asking for questions to field. Calming the ripples that a new ruleset makes when applied to our old codex is, IMO, better for everyone even if the answers are not what we wanted to hear, re: the Skyray's AA capability, for example.






With respect, I disagree. It's not the vehicle that fires the seeker missile, it's the seeker missile reacting to a marketlight target. The vehicle's BS is never used, the vehicle doesn't fire the missile itself: the seeker's AI is what causes the projectile to hit a lased target at BS5. The FAQ mentions nothing to do with snap shots specifically, like I said here as per the answer to Q3 previously, only factors that specifically state that they affect snap shots and overwatch can increase the snap shot BS to 2+. Otherwise networked markerlights would do just that. And yes, I hope that gets changed - we should be shootier than everyone else!

Yes the answers I was given were off the cuff but all codicies and the rulebook were referenced when needed.





LOL, no. There's not much point in having an open day if you're not going to interact with the attendees in a positive manner.

As said in a link to another thread above, I can see why a seeker would have to hit a flyer at BS1 due to the marketlight unit having to hit at BS1 to represent striking a manouverable target travelling at speed and then the seeker hits at BS1 as it's guided by the markerlight having to be trained on that unit until it hits, which is just as difficult, if not more so, than just tagging it with a 'light in the first place. No, I don't like it either, but I expect (or hope, at least!) that the Skyray and at least one other unit will get the Skyfire USR and that marketlight units with Skyfire infer that USR to any seekers fired.

From the Seeker Missile thread, just to clear up some of your IRL rationalization. Consider perhaps a sidewinder missile locked and fired from a fighter jet, or the missile launched from a FGM-148 Javelin system. I am not saying you are not right, just your reasoning is based on an old fashioned locking system. =)

Ahhhh. I think I've watched Transformers one too many times where they lase Scorponok! ha!

@Mauler, I wouldn't worry about anyone doubting you talked to the devs, I also wouldn't use any of the rulings they gave until they're in an FAQ but this seemed like a rare chance to communicate with the FAQ authors about issues we have with the rules. Given the amount of times an FAQ has come out and hasn't addressed issues which gamers are really confused about, it made sense to bring up some of the big questions the community had. Hopefully when they get round to updating the FAQ (or dare I say it, the codex) they'll remember your little talk and include answers to the questions

Yeah, but if they were only there to pick up chicks and have lackeys fawn all over their greatness...

.[/quote]
I am surprised by the fact that people don't consider doing such a thing cheesy as all get out.

I certainly would not want to play against you if you did something like that against me.

I am surprised by the fact that people don't consider doing such a thing cheesy as all get out.

I certainly would not want to play against you if you did something like that against me.[/quote]

Why is it cheesy?

Really? Because it's a drone. It 'dies' without the character that you are trying to prevent from dying, it isn't special in any way shape or form. It is pretty clear (to me) that this is a RAW cheese, that RAI it should not happen.

Yes, Tau are (supposedly) bad assault, but that doesn't mean that we need to resort to *this* to deal with Challanges.

I am kinda in agreement here. It's not like the drones are special, they're just like all the other drones of that type.

You're looking at it the wrong way.

Drones are there to protect their fleshy masters, to "die" for them if needed. The mechanics that come with being a character (the ability to accept/issue challenges) fits this doctrine perfectly, as the drone rushes towards a threat to interfere on its master's behalf, hopefully saving their life in the process. Everything that a character drone can do, even the precise shots (easily interpreted as the "real" character having sufficient expertise with a drone controller to direct their fire), can be rationalized under this perspective (opposed to taking the stance that drones are somehow special) and none of the mechanics of being a character fail to fall under this description.

Why can't all drones do it? Simple. The lesser experienced Shas (non-character models with drones) lack the reflexes/experience with the drone controller necessary to pull off such complex maneuvers with their drones.

No. The whole point of a challenge is to accept the call of a one-on-one battle to prove who is the better warrior. That's why the rest of the fighting units don't get involved and just go for each other instead! It's not exactly mighty or honourable to send a drone to fight for you, I don't think many of the ranking Tau Fire Caste got to be ranking Characters by cowering behind their AI wargear! The drones are not Characters, they are drones, the same as any other drone of their type, unless noted in their codex entry. The Character is supposed to step up and fight to prove their worth. Not send in a frisbee to die.

Exactly. The wording of every controlled drone for their unit type is 'as owner'. As such, most drones controlled have the 'character' unit type as every squad leader in the Tau codex, whether by the rulebook or FAQ (except XV88 team leaders) is also a character. There isn't any ambiguity in this outside of wishful thinking. When/if GW FAQs this, sure, drones might not be characters any more, but until that happens, most controlled drones are characters.

And as to the 'would a Tau cower behind a drone', I think they would. Especially against some big monster thing bearing down. But its also irrelevant to a rules discussion...

Cheers!

I am in the 'it's not cheesy it's Tau' camp.

Tau don't think the same way Imperials or even Eldar do. What makes you think a Tau Shas'El is going to care what a Space Marine champion thinks? Consider their stance on holding ground, Imperial Guard die to the last man proudly defending every inch of territory, while the Tau laugh and redeploy to bring more firepower into proper range. The entire Tau combat doctrine and way of life is about efficiency and practicality. Not to mention the entire Tau way of war is considered 'cowardly' to a lot of factions already.

It's much like in Indiana Jones when the guy goes nuts with his sword and Indy just draws his gun and shoots the guy in the chest.

A Space Marine sarge separates himself from his peers and shouts a challenge at the Shas'O, and the Shas'O in his pilot seat with heads up display marks the leader and issues a drone to 'keep him busy' while they try to deal with the rest of the enemy forces. The Shas'O doesn't even recognize the challenge for what Imperials see it as. Chaos and Imperials might see it as a point of honor and 'proving their worth' but to a Tau their 'worth' is based entirely on the Greater Good. It is not better for his unit to get entangled in a person duel to the death with some puffed up nobody from the Imperium, it's his duty and in the benefit of the Greater Good to just send a dancing disco disk to shut the arrogant bastage up, while he continues to punch the nearest members of the assaulting squad.

The entire 'Challenge' mechanic doesn't suit the Tau mindset at all, and the ability to send a frisbee disk to deal with it isn't just about keeping your leader alive for me, it's about maintaining the feel of the Tau army. Maybe some Tau who is particularly selfish like Farsight might be prideful enough to actually consider and understand the idea of person call outs like that, but I can't imagine most Tau leaders or even normal grunts even really understanding the concept too well.

In a 'rules' aspect, I am not sure, technically the drones are as owner, and Character is transferable unlike Independent Character. In my local place people accept them as 'characters' so that is the local Meta. So that is how it's played around here until something changes or the rule is brought up.

While that would make sense for characters from most armies, Tau have always been much more practical in regards to things like that. They see close combat as inherently barbaric and uncivilized - why would a tau commander have any compunctions at all about allowing one of his protective drones to fulfill its function by stepping up and getting in the way of the most dangerous of the raging maniacs who're trying to carve him up? As far as the tau commander is concerned it has nothing whatsoever to do with honor or proving his worth - tau do that by treating defeated foes honorably and by planning and leading successful battles in the service of the greater good, not by engaging in uncivilized fisticuffs with some battle-mad nutter who he has no logical reason to fight hand-to-hand.

While I think that the 'drones are characters' thing is more likely to be an unintentional oversight that'll go away at some point, while it lasts I personally find it to be a highly amusing and perfectly appropriate exemplar of the Tau's philosophy on the battlefield. And I would not be surprised if, when the new codex comes out, that drones lose character status but replace it with some other sort of special rule that allows them to better fulfill their wound-soaking function. After all, when 4th edition came out and the majority armor save wound allocation thing invalidated the use of drones in the 3rd edition codex, our new 4th edition codex immediately gave shield drones a new special rule to give that function right back. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar thing happened again.

I think we're overstating how 'logical and practical' Tau really are--even the Fire Caste make some use of ritual, such as the bonding stuff, and in the fluff we do have some Tau portrayed as being fairly Bushido-like (The Fire and Honor comic comes to mind). It's worth remembering that different Tau have different temperaments, as the codex notes with all the various septs--some Tau commanders might treat an engagement purely as some practical quandary to overcome, and some more hot-blooded Shas'Os might willingly thrust themselves forward to put the honorless gue'la in their place, and so on. Much as the Imperium isn't a monocultural blob, the Tau aren't all thinking in lockstep either.

Except the drones have a self-preservation instinct as shown by their need to (and ability to fail) Morale checks.

Either way it is I mootish point, I doubt that I would ever play against another Tau player in my area, and that is something that wouldn't come up, as I mostly wouldn't assault him.