Okay like spending 236+pts on a FK crisis team? You want good AP weapons? Seems like that is mostly what you have to take. You want 3 teams? just a bit under 1,000 points. Tau does not have cheap good AP weapons. A normal Crisis team with 2 drones will get put down very fast...do some mystical MathHammer on 3 man team with drones. So at 2 feet you get 3 AP2 shots? hitting on 4+? then failing on 1s to wound? Then come the missile Pods....6 shots....3 misses... 2 (or 3 wounds) with armor saves... you might kill 3-4 marines with this salvo for 236points? You can even do PR-FB set up...that is fine. Have fun getting close with a 5 model team. For 240 points you can get 2 FW teams. 2 FW teams at range or in rapidfire will do more damage to most any unit in the game than a FK team will (minus tanks) What would a FK team do to a paladins? I think a guy hit me with that...the 3 upfront with the FnP LoS stuff... He played me in a 1,000 pt game. He marched across the whole table soaking up all my fire...but each turn my FWs Volume of fire is what won the game. Once I was able to start rapid fire...I just forced him to roll more.

More rolls... more chances to fail... my crisis teams would only make him roll 5-7 times a turn...even with the 3 AP2 shots he would make FnP saves or I saves or LoS and space out wounds. That type of unit is why volume is better. I mean If I dropped the FarSight Bomb next to the unit and slapped him with 16 plasma shots then 14 MP shots... we are talking some pain, but lets face it that unit is around 1,000 points. What in the Tau codex are you more worried about? Maybe that someone can field 9 broadsides? Well that is a lot of armor one can take out, but ever think of the extra 36 S5 shots I have to go with them?

A key point to take away is that even if you take 5-6 full FW teams you still have plenty of points to build with. SO you can get the nice volume and still get good S and AP weapons as well. All the FK set ups in the world wont do much against Nids

236 points for fireknives? What in the greater good are you putting on them? My fireknives cost 186 points for a full team.

OK, you're right, must have missed that. But even if it is legal, I do maintain it is not a useful upgrade to take. (especially if only one model carries the grenade).

Sound like he's upgraded to a team leader with a couple of shield drones (which isn't so bad an idea) and a bonding knife (not as good a deal as it used to be).

You actually don't need bonding knives on battlesuit teams unless you're using large units of stealths now.

After reading through the whole topic I can start to see a consensus start to emerge. People are trying full units of FW with some upgrades. What we are finding is that once you go over a certain number of FW, around 4 full squads, you run into the law of diminishing returns. We are also seeing this with unit upgrades, once past a certain level of upgrades the returns start to become less cost effective.

So what is the sweet spot?

The answer is of course it depends. I suspect that most of you are dumping kroot to achieve the savings required to field increased numbers of FW. I'll suggest that the average game size is still 1750, 1500-2000 being the normal range, so in this kind of game size you would expect to see around 150-250 pts of kroot in a mixed list, about 30 or so. This translates to around 20 FW. Add this to the normal 6 that people have been forced to take (often in a DF) and you generally have the resources to take 3 full squads with upgrades without messing with your lists overly much.

So where are you making the required savings to get the 4th FW squad? I'm guessing that some of you are stripping points out of your Crisis teams. Me, I run the ultra expensive FK teams with all the gear at around 230ish pts. I think that with the increased effectiveness of massed firepower coming from FWs we will start to see that Crisis teams will move from the great generalists that FK teams offer to more specialised DR with less upgrades.

In effect the Tau list is moving more towards the Eldar way of building lists, Aspect Warriors. We see this in the Ork list as well. Very specialised units to achieve a particular task. Balanced lists. Taus have to balance their lists probably more than any other codex to achieve the same goals.

One last thing, my advice is to get yourself 2 tetras, they outperform pathfinders in almost every way. Cant afford the Forge World models, just take the wings off some Piranhas.

The tetras make a pretty big mockery of the PF and, in a sad way, survive much longer. On the topic of specialists, I believe we'll be seeing a massive change in the configurations of Crisis teams. I have already moved mine to SF for my themed army and on my other list they're still multipurposed. Though I will say, they've had many more kills in the themed army in frontline support of my mass of FW. With regards to kroot, the blob is still valid, but incredibly easy to template to death. I've been running the idea in my head of Krootox and 10 Krooties following a FW squad for charge deterence.

I would really like to know how Transports in 2k+ games have worked for anyone's FW and what they've found (aside from turtle-fu) that helps keep the army mobile and has FW always firing.

I use a Shas'vre with TA with 2 shield drones... that is the 50 extra points I take it. I could slash some points but I will always take the drones...that is a very special unit that needs to live and make it to rapid fire range. So I just got done playing a 2,250 point game. Purge the alien/H&A set up... I got first turn. I won the game 9 kill points to 6. He ran a missive bike marine army...with 15 terminators and he deepsriked them right into my line with no problem. I have to cook dinner right now, but I will post the pics and a turn by turn in soon. My list was 5 full FW teams...3 full BS teams...An 8 man PF team with a fish...and "lone-strike" (Shas'O..CIB..ABFC..Iridum A...Stim Injector..2 shield drone...shield G.)

Those bikes are nasty with T5 but my S5 spam did well...one big flaw with my list.. I need more marker lights! The BS teams did very well, I don't remember the last time I used 9 of them pics in about 40 mins or so. Honestly 1 more FW team would have helped me out more than a 3rd BS team.

I actually had a game the other day where I decided to try running three devilfish. Despite my regrets in not using those points elsewhere, I did have a bit more use out of them than I expected, in a fashion.


It was hammer & anvil deployment, and effectively what I did was move my devilfish up the field in the major fire lanes, then deployed the fire warriors close enough to objectives so they could take them, often providing cover from inbound fire.

At least, that was the theory.

Thankfully I did manage to get two into position. One was taken out half way to its destionation, and the squad was left hoofing it up field. I honestly feel that 2 HP is just too quickly stripped against a volume of mid-strength fire.

Same list, different game I did manage to actually wipe out a terminator squad with the combined shooting of three fire warrior teams who where all in rapid-fire range of the unit. The look on my opponents face was priceless. My dice rolled well that game

Here are a few pics that I took durring the game...

This was the end of turn 1 (his turn)... I some how failed to set up 2 inches closer taking out my FW gun line to shoot at the bike masses on my turn, but he deployed a scout bike squad 9 inches away on my right flank ( I smoked it first turn with a singe FW squad and a Fish) giving me first blood and another kill point.






This was top of my turn 2. I out flanked a stealth team behind his command squad (that was a 7 man team.) I maked them with 5 lights and blasted away with the team. I killed 2 or 3...then I hammered them with a FW team @ 30inch range then a BS team with RailGuns...leaving him with his warloard and another model (down to one wound) All of these bikes had Storm shields...SO all the FK or Rail guns made no real difference...this was a case for volume that my FW teams provided. The other units took pot shots killing a few bikes...but with out marker lights it was pretty sad. Oh and his next turn he flipped his warlord around and wiped out the ST... I had a stupid moment and thought I was going to wipe it out...so I walked them on only about 10 inches away...not 18 that was a stupid mistake tisk tisk...





This was his turn 2 and he got 2 out of 3 terminator squads right there...and yes they put a beating on my FW teams. But prior to this his bike squads were hitting them as well with twin linked bolters. On my next turn I killed both terminator squads with pulse rifle fire then cleaned them up with BS teams.



By this time a few of his bike squads got close to take out a BS team and 2 FW teams... and he got his last Terminator squad in with H flamer...killed 5 FWs from two different teams. I then focused fire back with 3 rag tage FW teams in Rapid F range...then a BS team and wiped them out. By my turn 5 he only had 4 models left. I had 1 full FW team 2 BS teams and 2 small FW teams left. the Score was 9 to 6...for the greater good! I like how this list played out. We all know I LOVE FarSight, but I was happy with how the game played. It was very strange to me playing with no FKs at all and more FWs. The S7 MP shots would have been nice... and a bike army will get close fast...so I think if I got rid of one BS team and stuck in a 3man FK it would have helped me.

I got very worried when his Terminators got that close, but the FW teams supported each other very well...keeping that 15inch rapid fire bubble overlapping.

Oh yes I almost forgot... I need one more marker light team. I think 4 Tetras will be great! Some of my FW shots were wasted at BS3...SO some changes will be coming soon. "Lone Strike" smoked 3 terminators with his CIB Fail on 1s to hit then hope for 6s!!! My BS team/Fw blob worked very well. 36 shots in Rapid rife range with 3 railguns...Seems legit right? I hope what I wrote is easy to understand...sometimes if not most... my grammar is on par with a 3rd grade lab rat that ate a whole box of crayons, but I still try...for the greater good!

Well done on the terminators. I fight a deathwing army regularly. Everytime. Its like he forgets habitually. Did you DP the Fish? It is my local group's opinion that the cover save stacks, Bringing you to a 50/50 chance on the move of shrugging the fire off (more in actual cover with the sensor spines, if I'm not mistaken). I'm trying to figure out the synergy of full troops in Fish's. The only idea I can seem to muster involves 2 decked out Fish(FD, DP, SS, TA, SMS optional) leapfrogging while the footsloggers lay down cover fire and advance. Flat out is just not an option as the sides/rear are too crumply. In addition this style IMHO is +2k lists only. Any smaller and it becomes the mainstay of your game, instead of a multi-pronged attack that holds much more of a chance to divide your opponent. Thoughts on that?

Has anyone used drones in attachment to any great effect, or even used them at all? Now that I'm seeing these rapid fire range devastation tactics, it would be even cooler to have the capability to pin with focus fire. Or shield yourself from low AP templates. Any thoughts?

I've been playing my fire warriors in teams of 10 with one upgraded to shas'ui and taking 2 drones gun drones and a BSF. This gives me 12 models, so it fits in a devilfish, but also grants the benefit of giving the squad the drone's initiativer incase they get caught up in CC and need to make a quick getaway. It has, thus far been very effective at allowing me to get away safely, however, the team itself is just as weak as ever. I think fire warriors, despite their improved status may still be transport huggers at the end of the day. Possibly not as much as they were (taking advantage of their improved range to pull of run and gun manouvers will work out, I'm sure), but I definitely wouldn't be so bold as to give up my fish yet.

5-6 full teams? That's absurd! I take three teams of ten, and usually find it is too much. They are static and lack the versatility of crisis suits.

30 fire warriors is more than enough for dakka, but earlier in your post you said ~230pts for fireknifes? Basic team is 186 points, and can kill a bit more than a third of a marine squad a turn, meaning around three turns of shooting to make up their points, given that the average tactical squad costs roughly the same.

10 firewarriors gets ten shots, 5 hits, around three wounds, one dead marine. An entire game of shooting, more or less, to make back their points, 16 points of marines a turn for 6 turns? Plus those same marines can outshoot them, out assault them, take cheaper transports, ignore AP4 etc. etc. and tac marines aren't even generally considered that good.

Not saying firewarriors are bad, they have their uses, but they are not the be all and end all of tau units. Especially since a single heavy flamer shot can wipe the whole unit, and since ap4 is becoming so common in this edition (autocannons, autocannons everywhere)

So after playing a particularly fierce (but very entertaining) necron army today, I'm still feeling the smarting. I'm cursing the dice gods and so on but I did take away some very profound knowledge.

1. Marker lights are still the FW's best friend.

2. Don't ever stop them moving. Always from cover to cover. But never stay static.

3. Flyers really crumple when 2 full squads fire on them.

4. When a heavy vehicle Deepstrikes into the middle of your forces, you'll find those 3 points each on emps saved some lowly FW lives from blast templates. Especially when bumps down in a ruin, getting a nasty ruin save. Much more fun to watch him tear up when it was a lowly FW team putting the final touches on it.

5. Vespid really can do some serious damage when they're in support of your Firewarriors. (they were the mvps of the game)

6. Trade in one squad for that Fish.

There was a serious smackdown from turn one on. Imhoteks lightning and so on. In addition. The BSF paid themselves back within the first 2 minutes of my first shooting phase. I haven't encountered that cheeseball deathray before and it really made me look at our transport situation. I love foot heavy lists. I prefer the chinese approach of drown em in regulars. Spiders vs lions. When lions have deathrays, get a fish. The dpods and jinks saved all my vehicles numerous times. I think I'll be working fish in slowly.

Out of curiosity, what is your group basing this on?

First thing's first - credit to indigoon to reminding me the DF are 3 HP, not 2 (I was using them as 3 in the game but was going by memory here. The speed the DF wast taken down FELT like two )



No I don't DP my fish. To tell the truth with Jink I don't DP anything that doesn't come with it built in, and would gratefully ditch them to make my Tetras cheaper
Personally I just deploy my models behind some sort of terrain so they still get a move, then always move them a millimeter or so if I plan on them being semi-static. I give everything I plan on shooting a multi-tracker anyway, so it evens out.

I really wish the cover save stacked but sadly I see no rule that gives us that. If it did, we'd actually have Shrouded with our disruption pods (which would be amazing). To tell the truth, I'd trade the "Obscured" rule on the DP for just Stealth on them, which would still bump us up to 50/50 on the cover save with Jink.

As far as using actual cover, it just goes by whichever one you want to use - the 5+ Obscured or whatever real cover you have. But if it were me and I was choosing between 5+ Jinky cover and a 4+ Hard cover, guess which one I'd choose


I'm not quite sure what you're describing here? Three to four units, using something like the Sea Turtle tactic and using a unit of firewarriors or Kroot on the outside to secure the deployment for those inside?


Front isn't much better Besides, at the end of your flat-out movement you do get the option to pivot into better position - it's a skimmer, not a flyer.


Not really. I'm mostly using Drones as a "I need more models in the unit and I don't have enough stuff modeled

They are good wound-soaks, and very useful for LoS! draws if someone is sniping my EMP bearing 'ui

The only flyers you really need to worry about are the AV12 ones, you know, the ones that can have three twin-linked lascannons, or a TL assault cannon, multi-melta and mindstrike missiles?

Also, I had some crazy luck with overwatch yesterday. One case was a 10 man FW team with their rapid fire overwatch, 20 shots, 8 hits! And was a Grand Master charging my stealth team, get hit by overwatching melta, instant killed. The rest of his unit then fails the charge distance. Also, the same melta gun in that same stealth team one-shotted a storm raven.

I've found that in my army my Fire teams still do the same thing they did in Fifth but now they're just better at their jobs. I'm still camping mine in Devilfish and if anything their primary role is capturing objectives with the secondary role of fire support for whatever my Crisis teams are shooting at.

If you want your crisis teams to live...and not just do one round of damamge you will need to take drones. My Crisis teams will always have 2 drones. If you are playing 1,750-2,250 you can still fit a good amount of FW teams and Crisis teams. Let ten marines get in rapid fire range with bolters and see how that Crisis team does with no drones.

The issue I run into though is that my list runs 12 crisis suits including the Commander and Bodyguards. How do you compensate for the fact that you're spending 120 points in shield drones alone?