High potential understrengths?

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Gragagrogog
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#19 » Jul 13 2017 03:57

Aye, probably. I can't remember.

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Overheal
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#20 » Jul 13 2017 09:23

Yeah people would suddenly be forgetting they owned the drones that came with all these kits (piranhas, without drones, just cheap flying FBs) it would start to get pretty ridic. I'd expect most people to use common sense with this. Same time I'd like the battle report :)

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Unusualsuspect
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#21 » Jul 13 2017 10:11

Ebay is actually a fairly valid explanation for why you're missing parts - My Shadowsun, for example, was purchased without her special drones (it was part of a package buy).

I've seen missing drones and the like.



I really don't think taking drones without suits in a crisis suit team and then "not having crisis suits" qualifies for this exception, though.

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Gragagrogog
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#22 » Jul 13 2017 10:32

You don't have to take any drones with shadowsun though, even without using this rule. Her datasheet says "up to 3 drones".

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Draaen
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#23 » Jul 13 2017 11:42

Certainly there are some gains if this rule was used dishonestly. However there are some practical limits. The rule says only one of each unit and there are further implications depending on what you drop on the table.

For instance I would argue that you could not use this rule to field 2 units of fire warriors numbering 4 and 5. You physically have the models on the table to make a 9 man squad which meets the minimum size requirements. You may want to split that squad up into 4 and 5 for more command points but I don't think this is legal because they could be one unit of 9. This is just with what's on the table not an oh I lent that model or didn't have the models due to buying it off of ebay.

I would seriously be wondering about a player that told me they did not have drone models for 5 piranhas while running a 10 man gun drone squad. Or if you have crisis suits on the table and then took the drones, as a separate unit of crisis suits without crisis suits, because you did not have enough crisis suit models for the gun drones to be a part of.

If you are playing at your FLGS which is more than likely a majority of your games (and presumably tournaments will say min size is a requirement) then your opponents may know you have a full squad of stealth suits because they played you a couple weeks ago and you ran them. Do you want to keep track of what you said to who to keep your story straight and do you really want to look across the table at someone and say "yes I only own this one stealth suit" when you know you have more? How often do you misplace/loan out all but one of a unit? You are probably going to play them later or they will see you next week with a full squad against someone else. No confrontation may happen with that player but I would think you may find fewer games.

There is usually an element of trust in these games. More than likely you aren't doing a full army audit on any given pickup game. You don't want to be the one to knowingly breach that trust. If you want to run smaller than min sized squad, or combine your piranha's drones into a squad so you aren't handicapped in kill point games just own up to it and say that's how you want to play and let your opponent adjust their list accordingly.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

Jburli
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#24 » Jul 13 2017 12:20

Gragagrogog wrote:You don't have to take any drones with shadowsun though, even without using this rule. Her datasheet says "up to 3 drones".


Ooh didn't notice this, could save you 28 points! The shield drones have been nerfed hard by the faq and the command-link drone is obsolete if you're using markerlights or kauyon.

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#25 » Jul 13 2017 06:37

Jburli wrote:
Gragagrogog wrote:You don't have to take any drones with shadowsun though, even without using this rule. Her datasheet says "up to 3 drones".


Ooh didn't notice this, could save you 28 points! The shield drones have been nerfed hard by the faq and the command-link drone is obsolete if you're using markerlights or kauyon.


Yeah, I hadn't noticed this before either. Interesting. If only that Forgeworld commander could do that...

bytestream
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#26 » Jul 14 2017 04:00

Panzer wrote:
bytestream wrote:
boomwolf wrote:Any other potential (ab)uses of under-strength units, other than the obvious uses?


Bring Pathfinder Support Drones without any Pathfinder to support them.

Pathfinder are literally just 40p and for that they offer great utility. There is no point in trying to bend the rules just so you can save those 40p lmao


First of all, there is literally no rule beding involved in just fielding drones and not pathfinders. The rules clearly state that you don't need to pay points for the models you don't bring.

Second, whether or not Pathfinders offer great utility or not somewhat depends on your list. If you don't need to bring their special weapons or markerlights they don't have much to offer. They might very well not be worth the 40pts you pay for them just to get the drones (if the drones are what you really want).


Don't get me wrong, I don't like the unterstrength rule and really wish they would remove it, but as long as it is there why not use it? It's also not the only rule that doesn't get used as intended. Just take a look at what you can do with multi charges or heroic intervention for example.

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Panzer
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#27 » Jul 14 2017 05:32

bytestream wrote:
Panzer wrote:
bytestream wrote:
Bring Pathfinder Support Drones without any Pathfinder to support them.

Pathfinder are literally just 40p and for that they offer great utility. There is no point in trying to bend the rules just so you can save those 40p lmao


First of all, there is literally no rule beding involved in just fielding drones and not pathfinders. The rules clearly state that you don't need to pay points for the models you don't bring.

Second, whether or not Pathfinders offer great utility or not somewhat depends on your list. If you don't need to bring their special weapons or markerlights they don't have much to offer. They might very well not be worth the 40pts you pay for them just to get the drones (if the drones are what you really want).


Don't get me wrong, I don't like the unterstrength rule and really wish they would remove it, but as long as it is there why not use it? It's also not the only rule that doesn't get used as intended. Just take a look at what you can do with multi charges or heroic intervention for example.

It's kind of rule bending because it's a Pathfinder unit with added Drones as wargear, not a real mixed unit imo. That's like trying to have a Homing Beacon without the Stealth Suits.

If Pathfinder are not worth the 40p in your list then you are doing something terribly wrong. I can't imagine a single list where 40p of Pathfinder doesn't have its uses even if you don't use their Markerlights or Special Weapons (with Special Weapons they wouldn't cost just 40p in the first place anyway).

Anyway this is going way offtopic now.

bytestream
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#28 » Jul 14 2017 07:14

Panzer wrote:It's kind of rule bending because it's a Pathfinder unit with added Drones as wargear, not a real mixed unit imo. That's like trying to have a Homing Beacon without the Stealth Suits.


Well, they are a mixed unit. Drones a not listed as (optional) wargear but as regular models right at the top of the data sheet.

If Pathfinder are not worth the 40p in your list then you are doing something terribly wrong. I can't imagine a single list where 40p of Pathfinder doesn't have its uses even if you don't use their Markerlights or Special Weapons (with Special Weapons they wouldn't cost just 40p in the first place anyway).


A Pathfinder, without the markerlight, is basically nothing but an inferior Fire Warrior (since his save is only 5+ but he costs the same amount of points). If you don't need the markerlights spending those 40 points on a Breacher or Strike Team gets you more than spending them on a unit of Pathfinders.

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Panzer
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#29 » Jul 14 2017 07:42

bytestream wrote:
Panzer wrote:It's kind of rule bending because it's a Pathfinder unit with added Drones as wargear, not a real mixed unit imo. That's like trying to have a Homing Beacon without the Stealth Suits.


Well, they are a mixed unit. Drones a not listed as (optional) wargear but as regular models right at the top of the data sheet.

If Pathfinder are not worth the 40p in your list then you are doing something terribly wrong. I can't imagine a single list where 40p of Pathfinder doesn't have its uses even if you don't use their Markerlights or Special Weapons (with Special Weapons they wouldn't cost just 40p in the first place anyway).


A Pathfinder, without the markerlight, is basically nothing but an inferior Fire Warrior (since his save is only 5+ but he costs the same amount of points). If you don't need the markerlights spending those 40 points on a Breacher or Strike Team gets you more than spending them on a unit of Pathfinders.

So? Just because it's inferior it's useless? I'm not saying that a Pathfinder without Markerlight is better or just as good as a Firewarrior, I'm saying that he is still worth its points. Not to mention that it's a pretty specific scenario since Markerlights should always come in handy no matter your list.

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#30 » Jul 14 2017 07:52

Panzer wrote:So? Just because it's inferior it's useless? I'm not saying that a Pathfinder without Markerlight is better or just as good as a Firewarrior, I'm saying that he is still worth its points. Not to mention that it's a pretty specific scenario since Markerlights should always come in handy no matter your list.


A Pathfinder with no Markerlight (i.e. a 5pt model) would probably be the most brokenly-powerful infantry in the game. The Markerlight pushes it to 8pts, not viable as line infantry (given the 5+ save), but still a viable and effective support unit I think.

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Panzer
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#31 » Jul 14 2017 07:59

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:So? Just because it's inferior it's useless? I'm not saying that a Pathfinder without Markerlight is better or just as good as a Firewarrior, I'm saying that he is still worth its points. Not to mention that it's a pretty specific scenario since Markerlights should always come in handy no matter your list.


A Pathfinder with no Markerlight (i.e. a 5pt model) would probably be the most brokenly-powerful infantry in the game. The Markerlight pushes it to 8pts, not viable as line infantry (given the 5+ save), but still a viable and effective support unit I think.

We're not talking about having no markerlight, we're talking about not using the markerlight since bytestream apparently thinks markerlights would be useless in his army or something weird like that.

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#32 » Jul 14 2017 08:05

Panzer wrote:we're talking about not using the markerlight since bytestream apparently thinks markerlights would be useless in his army or something weird like that.


There was discussion over on reddit about using a gunline made up of entirely Pathfinders. That's far too much of course, but otherwise, Markerlights absolutely have a place in Tau armies. I think some people think nerfed=useless, but nerfed things can still be decent. Worse, but decent.

Bringing 10-14 Markerlights seems like the sweet spot to me. Enough to get re-rolling ones on multiple targets, or to get +1BS on one target if you're desperate.

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Panzer
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#33 » Jul 14 2017 08:07

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:we're talking about not using the markerlight since bytestream apparently thinks markerlights would be useless in his army or something weird like that.


There was discussion over on reddit about using a gunline made up of entirely Pathfinders. That's far too much of course, but otherwise, Markerlights absolutely have a place in Tau armies. I think some people think nerfed=useless, but nerfed things can still be decent. Worse, but decent.

Bringing 10-14 Markerlights seems like the sweet spot to me. Enough to get re-rolling ones on multiple targets, or to get +1BS on one target if you're desperate.

I'd agree with that number. It's also not expensive to field at all. 120p for a major buff for the strength of our whole army. That's basically nothing. ^^

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Arka0415
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#34 » Jul 14 2017 08:13

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:I'd agree with that number. It's also not expensive to field at all. 120p for a major buff for the strength of our whole army. That's basically nothing. ^^


Here's my rationale:

Markerlights should be fired in pairs- two shots on 4+ should get you one hit. In my list, I have a Pathfinder squad with 6 Markerlights, two squads with 3 Markerlights, a Fireblade, and Darkstrider.

In any given round of shooting, I select squads A, B, C, D, and E to receive Markerlight hits.

First, the big Pathfinder squad shoots its lights in pairs at enemies A, B, and C. Statistically, one of those pairs should be a double-miss. Let's say it was squad C. Next, another Pathfinder squad shoots 3 Markerlights- one pair at enemy D, and one lone Markerlight at squad C, which went unmarked. Next, the final Pathfinder squad shoots one pair at enemy E, and has a lone light to fire in the case that any of squads A, B, C, or D are unmarked.

With all of this finished, the Fireblade and Darkstrider fire their lights to either double-mark a squad for a Seeker Missile strike, or to make up for other misses.

Jburli
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#35 » Jul 15 2017 10:10

Even if you're not really keen on markerlights, upgrading 3 carbines+markerlights to ion rifles at +4 points each seems a bit of a bargain to me.

The remaining 2 markerlights should land you 1 hit and allow you to fire the ion rifles overcharged with relative safety.

Xanrag
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Re: High potential understrengths?

Post#36 » Jul 15 2017 10:27

Atzilla wrote:Bring Crisis Teams with Gun Drones but without Crisis.
Now Manta deploy gun drones.
Profit.

Seriously, don't use the understrength rule...


You can only take two gun drones per XV8 suit model though. If you don't have any XV8 suit models then can you really take any gun drones?

boomwolf wrote:A sunshark can drop the interceptor drones, though they look ok to me.


More interesting would be to take the intereceptor drones without the plane. Let's see, that should end up at 30 points for a unit of two 20" move drones with Ion Rifles.. perfect for accompanying say a Coldstar Commander?

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