Tau bland in 8th?

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Maxwell
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Tau bland in 8th?

Post#1 » Dec 15 2017 11:19

Serious question here (not a complaint) for the more tenured among us.

I just started playing in 8th (but picked up at the end off 7th) and picked my faction based upon advice from a more tenured player based on;
-knowing that I liked ranged/shooty stuff (in general prior experience)
-wanting to play a somewhat elite lower unit count force
-Tau aesthetics.
-unique Tau gameplay
-The lower unit coun, shooting focus, and ally table helped me pick Tau over my 2nd choice (Tyranid) but now Nids kept GSC which gets a detachment of Astra Militarum...and Tau gets Tau

At present, I am finding myself wondering if I'd rather have gone with a different faction because of the recent changes. Other factions have psyker phase (or similar), shooting phase and usually a variety of competent melee units thus allowing for some variety in builds.

Tau never had psykers (and I knew that) but I had heard that they had SOME decent melee units (surge, fusion blades, Farsight, etc), were great shooters and had a unique mechanic in JSJ. Speaking strictly from personal experience in 8th it feels like I'm playing a shooting only, but not that great at shooting, army. And that the lack of choices in missing psyker and melee units is not returned anywhere else.

I will admit it was retrospectively stupid to pick my faction right before the edition change...but in fairness I really had no idea how much things would change. Anyways, not trying to complain here, but looking for feedback and general discussion from tenured players on the state of things.

Thanks all :)

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Yojimbob
Shas'Saal
Posts: 576

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#2 » Dec 15 2017 11:52

Maxwell wrote:Serious question here (not a complaint) for the more tenured among us.

I just started playing in 8th (but picked up at the end off 7th) and picked my faction based upon advice from a more tenured player based on;
-knowing that I liked ranged/shooty stuff (in general prior experience)
-wanting to play a somewhat elite lower unit count force
-Tau aesthetics.
-unique Tau gameplay
-The lower unit coun, shooting focus, and ally table helped me pick Tau over my 2nd choice (Tyranid) but now Nids kept GSC which gets a detachment of Astra Militarum...and Tau gets Tau

At present, I am finding myself wondering if I'd rather have gone with a different faction because of the recent changes. Other factions have psyker phase (or similar), shooting phase and usually a variety of competent melee units thus allowing for some variety in builds.

Tau never had psykers (and I knew that) but I had heard that they had SOME decent melee units (surge, fusion blades, Farsight, etc), were great shooters and had a unique mechanic in JSJ. Speaking strictly from personal experience in 8th it feels like I'm playing a shooting only, but not that great at shooting, army. And that the lack of choices in missing psyker and melee units is not returned anywhere else.

I will admit it was retrospectively stupid to pick my faction right before the edition change...but in fairness I really had no idea how much things would change. Anyways, not trying to complain here, but looking for feedback and general discussion from tenured players on the state of things.

Thanks all :)


Wait for the codex to drop before buying anything else. If you don't like the changes, see if you can find someone who is willing to make you a good deal on what you have and switch armies. I had a store near me that did a phenomenal trade when I switched armies back when Tau first came out. You might be able to swing something similar if you're really not happy with how the army has gone.

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Impulse
Shas'Saal
Posts: 97

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#3 » Dec 16 2017 04:19

For what it's worth, I think T'au are boring AF.

8th Edition is my first time playing 40k, and I already want a different army. Don't get me wrong, the T'au have great models and a wonderful concept. But, I felt like I wasn't really doing anything during a game.

It came down to what the faction does in each phase. Gunlines were largely static, no psychic powers or even Deny the Witch rolls, a preference for staying out of melee, and nothing special in the Morale phase (we aren't Night Lords but still) left me feeling like the entire game was "roll this group of d6s twice...ok now chill for half an hour then do it again".

High hopes for the new codex!

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Kakapo42
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 991

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#4 » Dec 16 2017 04:41

Impulse wrote:For what it's worth, I think T'au are boring AF.


As I moderator, I feel I should suggest you read over the ATT Forum Guidelines again, specifically the rules on family-friendly language.

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Using swear words and other inappropriate language is not permitted. Please make sure that no one can be offended by anything they may read here by keeping bad language, double entendres and so forth out of our forums. Self-censorship is also not accepted, as this shows the content was inappropriate in the first place.


Generally speaking, if you need to hide profanity in an abbreviation you should probably use entirely alternative language instead. You never know who could be reading the forum after all.

As to the subject at hand, the Tau were somewhat unique in that unlike many other 40k factions they were entirely a product of 3rd edition and its subsequent descendants, and thus had several key mechanics rooted very deeply in the 3rd edition rules paradigms. Consequently, they were hit particularly hard by the 8th edition rules changes, and have yet to recover due to their place in the release cycle GW has planned. Presumably they will gain much more interesting mechanics when their 8th edition codex is released, until then you'll just have to soldier on with the index rules.

If you are truly genuinely unhappy with how the Tau are represented, you could always simply ignore 8th edition and continue to use older rule sets for your games of 40k with your opponent's express agreement. A number of other people already do just that, myself included.
A Shas and a Kor walk into a bar...
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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3284

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#5 » Dec 16 2017 05:31

Kakapo42 wrote:As to the subject at hand, the Tau were somewhat unique in that unlike many other 40k factions they were entirely a product of 3rd edition and its subsequent descendants, and thus had several key mechanics rooted very deeply in the 3rd edition rules paradigms. Consequently, they were hit particularly hard by the 8th edition rules changes, and have yet to recover due to their place in the release cycle GW has planned.

You're definitely right that the original Tau design features are the issue with the transition to 8th Edition. Let's hope that GW understands this and takes the correct actions to fix it.

pilky
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 342

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#6 » Dec 16 2017 07:21

I feel we both gained and lost in 8th.

We lost:
- combat effectiveness from our few units that could deal damage.
- our ability to gain a decent BS
- manoeuvrability to avoid combat

However, we gained:
- the ability to field far fewer markerlights for a given army size without losing out
- more resilient units, especially in combat
- further resilience due to drones, which are always worth taking now
- reliable deep striking
- a reason to actually charge some units (to deny them their shooting phase)
- a general game play that is a lot more open towards aggressive play rather than just having an impenetrable gun line

Yes we've got some internal balance issues, and markerlights need a bit of a re-think, but overall I'm personally having far more fun playing Tau in 8th than in any previous edition

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nic
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 868

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#7 » Dec 16 2017 08:45

There are things which did not work that well in the transition to 8th but I do not think Tau are bland. If I look at this phase by phase

1. Movement: On balance I think Tau got better in the movement phase, none of our units are really slow and quite a few are fast. Fly really helps of course.

2. Psychic. No change, you do not play Tau if you want a psychic phase.

3. Shooting. A mixed bag here - Tau are really a short/medium range shooting army now and the long ranged stuff is painfully overcosted to the point where we simply cannot afford to play that game against other shooting armies.

4. Charge. A phase I make extensive use of, the Fly keyword really gives us the ability to control the tempo of a shooting game if we can get into CC to shut our opposition down. Similarly we can partially control the tempo of the assault game if we bring durable disposable units such as Shield Drones. We have lost JSJ and that hurts but for the time being I am just playing more aggressively and if I am charging I would not be able to JSJ anyway.

5. Combat. So having charged let's be honest, we do not do much damage :D

6. Morale. So much better than the old "roll to get swept" part of the game previously.

The thing we gained which we never had was drones that matter. Really the self-sacrificing little frisbees are the glue that hold a Tau army together in 8th and I am still finding new ways in which that opens up fun things for us to do. Drones were always one of the distinctive features of Tau but they have gone whole editions while being marginal at best.

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Maxwell
Shas'Saal
Posts: 86

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#8 » Dec 16 2017 03:17

nic wrote:The thing we gained which we never had was drones that matter. Really the self-sacrificing little frisbees are the glue that hold a Tau army together in 8th and I am still finding new ways in which that opens up fun things for us to do. Drones were always one of the distinctive features of Tau but they have gone whole editions while being marginal at best.


Good summary overall. Unrelated really but I always found the irony between saviour protocols and drones at ld 6 to be quite amusing. If you ask nicely they’ll take a bullet for you. But left to their own devices they’ll scoot at first chance.

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 532
Contact:

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#9 » Dec 16 2017 04:05

Maxwell wrote:
nic wrote:The thing we gained which we never had was drones that matter. Really the self-sacrificing little frisbees are the glue that hold a Tau army together in 8th and I am still finding new ways in which that opens up fun things for us to do. Drones were always one of the distinctive features of Tau but they have gone whole editions while being marginal at best.


Good summary overall. Unrelated really but I always found the irony between saviour protocols and drones at ld 6 to be quite amusing. If you ask nicely they’ll take a bullet for you. But left to their own devices they’ll scoot at first chance.


Drones don't fail morale. Their batteries just need replacing ;)

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Chris
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 204

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#10 » Dec 16 2017 04:50

As a Tau player from beginning, I have to say, it was a up and down, but more a down followed by a up. ;)

Honestly, that JSJ is gone really hurts me. It was a cool mechanic and I liked it a lot. It was something that belonged to Tau.

Played some battles in the new edition is something different but also something familiar.

I play my Tau much more aggressive and I hold my units between somewhere of 18“. That makes some really dense fights. I don’t know if it’s unique to Tau, but it’s a hell of fun.

Nevertheless looks the army itself really cool. That said I have a great Tau army, but therefore no other army.

I would wait till the codex drops and then look if you like them or not.

stayhandsome
Shas'Saal
Posts: 35

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#11 » Dec 17 2017 04:57

As a new player Tau do seem like they have the potential to be bland, but it really depends on what the codex brings. If they get the Tyranid or Eldar treatment, it’ll make things really interesting. It seems like as newer codexes are released they just keep getting more interesting and flavorful, so I think Tau have a really good shot at being a competitive and fun army once Dex changes come through.

However I hope that what doesn’t change too much is the current style of play. At the moment Tau can’t just sit back and fire long range weapons on massive gun platforms like AM, our best units make use of their mobility and their mid-range damage. Personally I think that’s an interesting idea, surgically moving units around the field at fastest-in-game speeds, planting deep strikers and flying in drones to suck up hits.

While I want to see Riptides, XV8s, Broadsides and Hammerheads get some love, I do really like seeing Fusion commanders, XV109s, and Breachers take the “shotgun to the face” strategy, so I hope the codex amplifies that playstyle rather than replaces it.

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Juicy Fruit
Shas'Saal
Posts: 36

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#12 » Dec 17 2017 08:44

nic wrote:3. Shooting. Tau are really a short/medium range


Index: Xenos 2 wrote:T'au are the masters of mobile warfare - even their defensive emplacements are able to relocate mid-battle - Page 77 Tidewall


This is what GW have in mind for us. Using the new deepstrike mechanics and transports we can pick a flank or objective and concentrate all force in that area. An army that spreads out to deny deepstrike will be thin in areas, one that clumps up will be less able to contest objectives. You don't need to table the enemy - you need to cripple their ability to score points.

Flexible force concentration can by achieved by Stealth Suit homing beacon drops, breachers/cadre + drones in a devilfish (hide behind buildings in deployment), kroot hounds moving with devilfish to screen and tarpit, coldstars landing next to and assassinating enemy characters or vespid stingwings for their anti-infantry and 14" move.

There is no army that has the ability to deploy as much firepower off the table and bring it down with no penalties for shooting (all suit weapons are assault)

If you want a gunline army I'd go AM or Ad Mech. This is the season of aggressive Tau.

P.S: Check out this post or this one for list ideas for non-gunline Tau armies with proven sucess and leave the big stompy robots at home.

armisael
Shas'Saal
Posts: 71

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#13 » Dec 17 2017 09:37

This is also my first edition for 40k. T'au is my first army too.
I don't know what we look like before.

It is very unique for 40k for being non-psychic faction.
For lore wise, potentially, we are the most reasonable faction in the universe!

Nymphomanius
Shas'Saal
Posts: 532
Contact:

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#14 » Dec 17 2017 12:26

As someone who has played many armies in both fantasy and 40k over several editions it's not a new thing for players to be put off a previously loved faction due to a core change in their mechanics.

I stopped playing dark eldar in 5th edition after their Codex was released and the way combat drugs worked completely changed.

And many beastmen players were unhappy with the 7th ed rulebook after loosing ranked skirmish units and felt it had bad synergies. Funnily that was my second favourite fantasy rulebook second only to the 6th ed vampire counts.

If our codex had just come out and we were looking at 2 years of current T'au I'd understand wanting to change things up. But with just a few months to go honestly just wait it out see what happens Q1 2018 :fear:

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Arka0415
Shas'Vre
Shas'Vre
Posts: 3284

Re: Tau bland in 8th?

Post#15 » Dec 17 2017 06:54

Nymphomanius wrote:If our codex had just come out and we were looking at 2 years of current T'au I'd understand wanting to change things up. But with just a few months to go honestly just wait it out see what happens Q1 2018 :fear:

I agree. Though, so much in our lives is banking on this new release, I must say. It better be good.

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