An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Use this area for all discussions of the "gaming" aspect of 40K/Tau.
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GND
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#91 » Jan 20 2018 03:10

ZeroFX wrote:Getting things taken away from you sucks, there is always a sense of missing it when it's gone. But what it seems like GND was really getting at was that it's an emotional response. When you take a step back, calm down, and think about whether or not JSJ was really good for the game, you'll probably realize that there's a lot more fun stuff that could be done instead.


Thank you for your post. Yes, this was the essence of what I was getting at. I'm glad that I got through to at least someone. :smile:

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#92 » Jan 20 2018 03:15

GND wrote:[Thank you for your post. Yes, this was the essence of what I was getting at. I'm glad that I got through to at least someone. :smile:

I think most of us understand- you made excellent points and I think they are certainly valid! However, we're still worse off as a faction without JSJ, which puts our main source of firepower, battlesuits, in somewhat of an odd position tactically.

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GND
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#93 » Jan 20 2018 03:35

Arka0415 wrote:
GND wrote:[Thank you for your post. Yes, this was the essence of what I was getting at. I'm glad that I got through to at least someone. :smile:

I think most of us understand- you made excellent points and I think they are certainly valid! However, we're still worse off as a faction without JSJ, which puts our main source of firepower, battlesuits, in somewhat of an odd position tactically.


Which maybe true (it's a matter of opinion), but that is exactly a thing that is not relevant to the question whether JSJ is a good game mechanic or not. It's also an issue I think best left on ice until our codes comes out as the same points are being reiterated over and over since last summer. :)

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Arka0415
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#94 » Jan 20 2018 03:49

GND wrote:Which maybe true (it's a matter of opinion), but that is exactly a thing that is not relevant to the question whether JSJ is a good game mechanic or not. It's also an issue I think best left on ice until our codes comes out as the same points are being reiterated over and over since last summer. :)

And that's the great thing about this discussion really- I totally agree that JSJ was an overpowered, boring, ill-designed mechanic. And it's removal makes Tau worse. These are both valid positions.

J'kaara Nan's original post was totally subjective- they liked JSJ, and are sad to see it gone. I, and many others, share in that sentiment.

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DominayTrix
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#95 » Jan 20 2018 10:09

Most of your arguments seem to heavily rely on past experiences in 7th that aren't as relevant in 8th Edition.
ZeroFX wrote:
JSJ is simply not a good mechanic from a design perspective. Warhammer is a game of interaction; nobody is here to play solitaire. And yet that is exactly what JSJ supports and emphasizes. Especially in an army that focuses primarily on shooting. It doesn't let your opponent get to play the game. Quite frankly people play units to do the things they're good at. Nobody is picking a melee army because they find it really fun chasing people around the table. They want combat rounds. They want to feel like they're getting an opportunity to engage the opponent in a meaningful way.


I don't think its our fault they chose a melee army and we don't want to fight them in melee? Don't forget that there is a tradeoff that its usually an all-you-can-eat sushi buffet if melee units close the gap. This is also less of a problem in 8th since units have different movement speeds and melee units tend to be incredibly fast if they are worth taking. Warptime, Tyranid base movement speed etc

ZeroFX wrote:Additionally, it's not a mechanic that requires a true choice on the player's end. It is purely beneficial. Sure, there may be times where you're already perfectly positioned, but you didn't choose not to use JSJ because there was a potential negative side effect, there was just no positive benefit. Warhammer is a game that requires no mechanical skill (you can't practice throwing dice better, or being better at moving a piece accurately when there's no pressure of time), so the fun of the game ultimately comes down to the decisions we get to make. JSJ did give you a choice of where to move, but it was almost always extremely obvious (move where you are in the least danger). As everyone has pointed out, Tau aren't exactly superstars in melee. There was no tradeoff of wanting to be in close combat. Simply put, the best location to be was mathematically possible to calculate. This does not feel like a decision; it is simply whether or not you know the answer. A good decision in Warhammer comes down to deciding whether or not you think the risk of an action is worth the reward. This was never a facet of JSJ as there was no risk, simply only reward relative to how well you knew how to position.

Except now with the Fly keyword it is actually worth it in many cases to stay in melee so there is some decision making. Want to lock a unit out of shooting at the risk of another unit piling in? Do you move closer to a unit for the higher melta roll, but at the risk of rolling a poppy JSJ? Now its just repeatedly measuring 18 inches from your target and stuffing your flavor of drones between them and your Commanders.

ZeroFX wrote:And if you needed another reason to dislike JSJ, I would point out that it unfairly prioritizes many attributes and makes it difficult to balance Tau units and give us true variety and choice in army building. The mechanic heavily de-emphasizes units that have strong defensive stats, as the idea was to make our units survivable by not taking any damage to begin with. It also shuns relevancy in melee combat and decreases the value of having range on your weapons because you could safely deal damage with much shorter range ones. All of these things are aspects of suits in 8th edition that can be played up to give us more variety and options when creating lists. It allows GW to diversify unit characteristics without them feeling weak.


Defensive stats are very relevant considering that it is stupidly easy to get LOS in 8th. One of the major selling points of both Commanders and Drones isn't that they are fairly tough, its that Commanders cannot take damage with the character rules so people give them crazy levels of bubble wrap. Melee still doesn't matter since its just a question of how much drone bubble wrap they can undo before its your turn again. JSJ would make it more relevant since you are more likely to get caught outside your happy place where people can charge you.

ZeroFX wrote:GW recognized that shooting was still the style of the Tau, so they gave us the option to leave combat freely with many of our units. In this way, our opponent gets to meaningfully interact with our units, and we still get to focus on ranged damage. As many have already mentioned, there likely needs to be more in the way of survivability as a reward, but ultimately this is a far more fun and interesting way to play the game. As long as we still have legitimate avenues of winning, it creates a friendlier and more engaging environment. Ultimately, we all want an opportunity to feel like we had a chance to win the game. And while you could argue that players certainly had more opportunities than they may have realized in 7th edition, the removal of JSJ has given more players the ability to feel like they're having a good time when playing against Tau.


Again, LOS being easy to get, increased movement speeds, and now more consistent deep strike makes it easier to chase down/kill/interact with JSJ.

ZeroFX wrote:Let's not discredit GW so easily. The index obviously has been unkind to many of us in terms of balance, but that frustration is not a good reason to restore a poor mechanic. If you look at the index changes, it's hard to expect them to have been incredibly well balanced at the first go. Tau was an army that received incredibly wide, drastic changes. There was no reasonable amount of testing that could have been done internally to get a good idea of just how good they felt. It was more about changing the direction than it was about getting things super even. Too much focus on pure balance was impractical, as armies are simply given more options as there codexes are released. Even if they spent a whole lot of time on it, it would never have fully compensated for the additional strategems, artifacts, and just raw game examples for balancing that the last several months have given them. What they did gain from the index was an idea that they preferred the way Tau interacted with other players and other armies in 8th, and that's awesome. Now we just have to be patient and wait for the index to come in and balance things.


Ignoring any conspiracies about our index being purposely nerfed and lazily copy-pasted, most of our changes come from savior protocols and the new character rule being heavily exploitable. I have not found an opponent who loves the new mechanic of "can you kill enough frisbees surrounding my guys so you can shoot them?" Opponents no longer have to hunt markerlight units since the new table is too expensive or people are using characters which are untargetable for a single accurate markerlight.

ZeroFX wrote:Getting things taken away from you sucks, there is always a sense of missing it when it's gone. But what it seems like GND was really getting at was that it's an emotional response. When you take a step back, calm down, and think about whether or not JSJ was really good for the game, you'll probably realize that there's a lot more fun stuff that could be done instead. In an ironic way, Warhammer is actually a game where there are no rules. There is no rule that can't be broken, no idea that can't come to fruition through the game mechanics. Let's use our imaginations and not just go back to something old just because it's familiar.

Why not both? Bring back something old and fix it by making things easier to kill (Like 8th did) and add in some cool new things. I think 7th JSJ had plenty of problems, but its not an honest and fair appraisal to evaluate it in 8th by looking at how broken it was in 7th.

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Torch
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#96 » Jan 20 2018 12:36

I'm pretty sure JSJ was removed because it's no longer essential to being a viable army. The fact that we can retreat from close combat means that we no longer have to abide our expensive suits dying to close combat over several turns. As such, JSJ can be removed without completely destroying Tau. And it was.

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Temennigru
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#97 » Jan 25 2018 09:16

Torch wrote:I'm pretty sure JSJ was removed because it's no longer essential to being a viable army. The fact that we can retreat from close combat means that we no longer have to abide our expensive suits dying to close combat over several turns. As such, JSJ can be removed without completely destroying Tau. And it was.

It’s not the same thing.
We still get destroyed in melee, so it’s hard to survive CC. With JSJ we could completely avoid it.
I would be OK with it returning only for fast units like the XV9

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AnonAmbientLight
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#98 » Jan 28 2018 02:10

There's a disconnect to the arguments for JSJ. I think players are intentionally or unintentionally ignoring all the changes that have come to the game and how they interact with T'au. You can't just look at things like this from one angle. You have to look at the entire game and all its aspects. This is key. It's key to discussions like this. You have to continuously question your own premise from outside perspectives, and this forum notoriously does not do that.

Let's look at what we know.

Currently no unit in the game has JSJ capabilities by default. Zero. This right there should be the first sign that maybe your argument for JSJ is flawed. No other unit has it, so it seems clear that GW is going for some kind of design goal. Is that a fair assumption?

Second, the game has changed drastically. JSJ was used to increase survivability for units as well as help with repositioning. This was necessary because of how things like deepstrike worked. It was also necessary because things were not as tanky back then, and guns were not as shooty. It is clear to see that firepower strength and damage has gone up as well as wounds. We don't need to assume that, we can see it. Twin linked weapons become two shot weapons. Models that had 5 wounds become 14. Putting JSJ back without any nerf to compensate would mean that these same units now become more shooty and more tanky. That's just a fact.

The Riptide that already has more than double the wounds from previous editions can now survive longer because it can JSJ out of LoS. The Crisis Suit that has already gained +1T +1W, perfect deepstrike, 2'' movement, etc, can now survive longer because it can JSJ out of LoS. Doubly so because of how drones work now.

You can take your Coldstar Commander, move him up 20'' to the edge of a building, shoot, then JSJ him an inch or two and now he is out of LoS.

One thing that no one has really replied to is the fact that JSJ is useless if it doesn't work. If you get snake eyes or can't get your unit to safety, that's it. Oops! So when JSJ didn't work, your unit would die or suffer heavy causalities. It seems to me that it's better for a unit to be more reliable and predictable on the battlefield rather than having to rely on dice to do the work. Dice that cannot be modified.

If you really think that JSJ is fine and has to be back in, then play a game of 8th with JSJ on suits that would have it and see how you do. My guess is that your suits will largely become unkillable in the shooting phase and difficult to wipe out and catch in the assault phase.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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nic
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#99 » Jan 28 2018 03:36

DominayTrix wrote:Moving JSJ to a Strategem would be a pretty hefty disappointment for Commander spam and would further inflate the value of Y'vahra since it is probably the best single target candidate for JSJ use. Another interesting option would be multiple units using JSJ, but costs multiple CP. Something along the lines of "Select 1 unit with the Jetpack keyword and 1 Commander with 6' inches, they may JSJ." I would happily pay 3CP for an army wide JSJ.


A JSJ stratagem such as the Eldar got would benefit expensive units relative to smaller ones. So XV8 teams would see more benefit that commanders, as would Ghostkeels and Riptides. If one stratagem can either move one Commander or 9 Crisis Suits that makes the Crisis Suit unit much more compelling than equal points in Commanders for a player focussed on mobility.

I do not expect or even particularly want them to retain the privileged position of Commanders as the clearly best thing in faction by giving them special get-out clauses for being a unit of one when using Stratagems.

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Kelandis
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#100 » Jan 28 2018 05:01

So I don't have experience with older editions, my only experience in the game comes from 8th because I joined in November. Now, the JSJ ability sounds awesome and great to me, because we crumple in melee.

However, if anything resembling it comes back it will not be free. The only model we have(I don't know FW stuff) that can do a JSJ like maneuver is the Riptide, and it takes damage in order to perform the maneuver. It's a choice the player needs to make, and the player actually has to make it rather far i advance for their turn since the Nova Reactor has to used in the movement phase, but the JSJ happens in the assault phase, which makes for interesting strategy decisions and give and take gameplay. And thats great! Options with weighing pros and cons are good game design.

Now, if JSJ comes back in any way at all, I foresee it coming in two separate ways, and I also expect it to not be 2d6". 2d6" worked in 7th edition because the ability was basically a free bonus that the units possessed. They didn't pay points or command points in order to use it, they just did. So here's the ways I expect it to function:

1. I think the most likely way in which JSJ will return is as a stratagem, if it does. And I foresee it as something like, pay x Command Points and move either y or yd6 or yd3 units with the [Jetpack] and [Battlesuit] keywords z inches. This method makes the ability a cost, and thus a tactical choice of whether or not to spend the resources to maneuver.

2. The second way I see JSJ coming back is as a support system, and the one I see as the best candidate would be the Vectored Retro Thrusters. This would be an interesting choice because it will eat up the slots for the battlesuit, and on crisis suits specifically would make the player decide between firepower(moar dakka!), durability(shield generators, stimulant injectors) and maneuverability, which again making players make interesting choices is good game design. The actual use of the ability in this way would like be a flat "move x inches" instead of variable since the player is now paying for it in their points.

So those are the ways I expect JSJ to be implemented IF its implemented. I also suspect it to have limiters placed on it, and one that would make sense to me is not allowing JSJ if the unit advanced, as well as make it so the units cannot JSJ in the direction of an enemy unit. That's my take on the ability.

Should battlesuits get a free extra movement phase thats not reliable? No, absolutely not. Should they get the optionof purchasing extra maneuverability with trade offs in other departments? Yes, that sounds more reasonable.

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Kael'yn
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Re: An Appeal for Jump-Shoot-Jump

Post#101 » Jan 28 2018 05:39

AnonAmbientLight wrote:There's a disconnect to the arguments for JSJ. I think players are intentionally or unintentionally ignoring all the changes that have come to the game and how they interact with T'au. You can't just look at things like this from one angle. You have to look at the entire game and all its aspects. This is key. It's key to discussions like this. You have to continuously question your own premise from outside perspectives, and this forum notoriously does not do that.

This seem to assume we want JSJ and keeping all the other changes. We don't want that as a trick to be masters of the game. We want the return of a mechanism that was genetic to our battlesuit. Even if it's to loose something else.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Currently no unit in the game has JSJ capabilities by default. Zero. This right there should be the first sign that maybe your argument for JSJ is flawed. No other unit has it, so it seems clear that GW is going for some kind of design goal. Is that a fair assumption?

GW design goal was first to speed up things for v8. JSJ added some game length by additionnal rolls/movement time and hide-and-seek tactics. But I am not sure that now games in V8 are much quickier to play than previous versions.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:Second, the game has changed drastically. JSJ was used to increase survivability for units as well as help with repositioning. This was necessary because of how things like deepstrike worked. It was also necessary because things were not as tanky back then, and guns were not as shooty. It is clear to see that firepower strength and damage has gone up as well as wounds. We don't need to assume that, we can see it. Twin linked weapons become two shot weapons. Models that had 5 wounds become 14. Putting JSJ back without any nerf to compensate would mean that these same units now become more shooty and more tanky. That's just a fact.

The Riptide that already has more than double the wounds from previous editions can now survive longer because it can JSJ out of LoS. The Crisis Suit that has already gained +1T +1W, perfect deepstrike, 2'' movement, etc, can now survive longer because it can JSJ out of LoS. Doubly so because of how drones work now.

You can take your Coldstar Commander, move him up 20'' to the edge of a building, shoot, then JSJ him an inch or two and now he is out of LoS.

Again, the problem is not the return of JSJ and keeping other bonuses. Trade-of are fine.
The FLY mechanism on jump pack marines or eldar is fine because they fight in CC and can jump out of combat if necessary. Not for our small elite forces with expensive battlesuits who want to avoid melee at all costs.
Our older fluff about battlesuit were not tanky units to get on melee, they were few elites used to deal swift and deadly strikes where they are needed before redeploying somewhere else.
So JSJ first was meant to represent that our jetpacked units could move 12" and firing weapons: JSJ was not 3 actions, its 2 actions in the same time: jump and shoot, but the game mechanism needed to units to fire on shooting phase and not on movement phase, so translate this into actions in 3 phases.

AnonAmbientLight wrote:One thing that no one has really replied to is the fact that JSJ is useless if it doesn't work. If you get snake eyes or can't get your unit to safety, that's it. Oops! So when JSJ didn't work, your unit would die or suffer heavy causalities. It seems to me that it's better for a unit to be more reliable and predictable on the battlefield rather than having to rely on dice to do the work. Dice that cannot be modified.

JSJ not working as intended was a way to learn to think in advance of enemy response (this was hard lessons for me when I started back in v4). Not obtusely crash in melee and relying on random tankiness to keep on fighting. JSJ needed to be thought to be played correctly.
Of course, if one want to plan on movements in advance, chess are better than 40K. But 40K v8 is more now a game of "hits vs wounds" for resolving combats than movement planification.
I am with you on the silly random movement in v6. Previous JSJ was better (but 6" was maybe too much back in v4 when most CC units couldn't run more than 6" in assault).

AnonAmbientLight wrote:If you really think that JSJ is fine and has to be back in, then play a game of 8th with JSJ on suits that would have it and see how you do. My guess is that your suits will largely become unkillable in the shooting phase and difficult to wipe out and catch in the assault phase.

Play with JSJ with less wounds/toughness would be fine. Keeping the hit bonus flyers and AA guns have against our battlesuit could be kept (if we are that agile, then any dedicated flak computer should hit us better).
And no puny guards with muddy boots should be able to catch our jet packed elites, only swift runners of flyers should.

TL:DR
JSJ return will obviously need our suits to be less tanky. And the occasion to rebalance some other things.

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