Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

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Draaen
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 123

Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#1 » Jan 11 2018 05:46

So I've been running my stealth suits for a while and I have been shocked at how much incoming fire these guys have been able to survive while in cover. Initially I was concerned about my stealth suits living through my opponents first turn so I can use the homing beacon. I decided to run the numbers to determine how many guns an opponent would need to wipe the squad to deny me the beacon use.

So my simplifying assumptions are that my opponent has no re-rolls of any kind. I will assume rapid fire weapons are out of rapid fire range so that you can just halve the number to determine how many guns are required if they were in rapid fire range. Random die weapons are taken at an average i.e 3.5 for d6. D6 damage weapons always do 2 damage or more. Otherwise guns got their full shots. The stealth suits are benefiting from cover and the enemy is not negating that protection.

Sample Calculation (Guardsman with lasgun)
Lasgun is rapid fire 1 so it has 1 shot. (Assuming out of rapid fire range)
Lasgun hits on 5+ which is 1/3 of the time so 3 shots are required for 1 hit.
Lasgun wounds T4 on 5+ which is 1/3 of the time. So 9 hits are required to cause one wound.
Stealth suit saves on 2+ so fails 1/6 times. Therefore 54 lasgun shots are required to wound.
Stealth suits have 2 wounds so it is 108 lasgun shots to kill a stealth suit in cover.

BS 4+ - Guns to kill one stealth suit
Lasgun - 108
Bolter - 72
Plasma (Regular) - 13.5
Plasma (Supercharged) - 5.4
Flamer - 6.9
Assault Cannon - 4.5
Melta - 4.3

BS 3+ - Guns to kill one stealth suit
Lasgun - 72
Bolter - 48
Plasma (Regular) - 9
Plasma (Supercharged) - 3.6
Flamer - 6.9
Assault Cannon - 3
Las Cannon - 3.6
Melta - 2.9

So our little dudes are super resilient to small arms fire. In order to wipe a 3 man stealth suit squad would require 324 lasgun shots. That doesn't include command point re-rolls on armour saves or drones.

Plasma is popular as it can pump out a large amount of quality shots. However with the -1 to hit people won't tend to overcharge it since they overheat 1/3 of the time. Since the to wound roll goes from 2+ and 2 damage when overcharged to 3+ and 1 damage when fired regularly it drastically reduces the efficacy of the plasma gun.

Higher quality weapons like lascannons or melta will be ideally applied applied to hidden drones initially. If 2 shield drones make 1 FNP save that makes the first suit essentially take 4 model kills before it dies (3 for drones 1 to kill it). Drone tanking works less good against single damage weapons like assault cannons. Lets look at the shots required to kill 3 stealth suits in cover with 2 hidden shield drones who make 1 FNP save.

BS4+ - Quality Guns to kill a squad of 3 with 2 shield drones who make 1 save
Plasma (Regular) - 61
Plasma (Supercharged) - 32 (10 2/3 die to overheat)
Lascannon - 32
Melta - 26
Assault Cannon - 20

BS3+ - Quality Guns to kill a squad of 3 with 2 shield drones who make 1 save
Plasma (Regular) - 41
Plasma (Supercharged) - 22 (7 1/3 die to overheat)
Lascannon - 22
Melta - 17
Assault Cannon - 14

So the numbers I came up with were surprisingly high to me. However it does reflect what I've seen on the battlefield with them. If anyone has a weapon they want me to add I can. I took what I thought were the common guns or ones that had equivalents across a lot of armies.

What do you guys think? Are you surprised at the theoretical durability?
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

KinGensai
Shas
Posts: 9

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#2 » Jan 11 2018 08:01

The empirical data I have accumulated thus far accords with this.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 2622

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#3 » Jan 11 2018 08:43

Yeah, Stealthsuits are durable! However, if your strategy depends on them staying alive (i.e. Flamer XV8s using Manta Strike), and if your enemy knows this, they can remove the unit if they try. It'll take a lot of firepower though.

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Impulse
Shas'Saal
Posts: 94

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#4 » Jan 11 2018 11:55

Not surprised! But that's because of great members like Arka helping me out.

In my limited experience, Stealth Suits are great because they're good enough that an opponent needs to deal with them (but can't effectively) but not so good as to be a high priority must-kill target.

I usually take them with ATS and Burst Cannons. Fusion Blaster and Drone Controller on one was cool, but felt kind of wonky.

EDIT: Does anybody take Shield Generators?

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Arka0415
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#5 » Jan 12 2018 04:06

Impulse wrote:Not surprised! But that's because of great members like Arka helping me out.

Thanks! Thank you for all the great questions though. That thread is a good resource.

Impulse wrote:Does anybody take Shield Generators?

It's funny, I always thought the Shield Generator was pointless on such a durable unit, until Belisarius Cawl pointed his Solar Atomizer at them last game... :neutral:

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JancoBCN
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Posts: 38

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#6 » Jan 12 2018 04:45

Draaen, that happened to me as well!

I was at first concearned with their durability and their prowess in doing its main thing: holding a T1 fire from your opponent if you go 2nd in order to drop the Homing Beacon as close as possible and use your Crisis teams benefiting of the <9" range (Flamers, Fusions). But when I ran the numbers, I realized the amount of fire power that they can absorb, thanks to the "-1 to hit" and the keyword "Infantry" on their profile.

Of the many games I played with them (20+?) I think only once I have lost a hwhole unit (3-man) turn 1, and it was against a very though Craftwolrds list with a lot of firepower. It took 2 flyiers, 2 Serpents, and like 16 Dire Avengers (32 shots of S4 AP0/-3 D1 at 3+) to bring it down, and that with one of their psykers making -1 to my save throws, ending at 3+ in cover.

These guys are amazing, and if their entire army is shooting at your little guys, you are doing great in holding their alpha strike. So they are one of the few T'au units that have only one job, and that they are great at doing it. Love them.

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Impulse
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#7 » Jan 12 2018 04:51

What does the keyword Infantry have to do with it?

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demurr
Shas
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#8 » Jan 12 2018 05:00

Impulse wrote:What does the keyword Infantry have to do with it?

I assume he was refering to units with keyword infantry getting a +1 to their armor save when getting the benefit of cover in ruins.

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Impulse
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#9 » Jan 12 2018 06:29

Is that for a specific mission or something? Which book is it in? I only have the basic rules that I got for free from my LGS.

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Arka0415
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#10 » Jan 12 2018 06:34

Impulse wrote:Is that for a specific mission or something? Which book is it in? I only have the basic rules that I got for free from my LGS.

I think it's in the terrain/cover section. It applies to all games. Infantry get +1 to their armor saves when in cover, vehicles/monsters only get it if they're in cover and 50% obscured.

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Impulse
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#11 » Jan 12 2018 06:53

Arka0415 wrote:
Impulse wrote:Is that for a specific mission or something? Which book is it in? I only have the basic rules that I got for free from my LGS.

I think it's in the terrain/cover section. It applies to all games. Infantry get +1 to their armor saves when in cover, vehicles/monsters only get it if they're in cover and 50% obscured.


Ohhhhh right that one. I thought that Monsters were the exception to an otherwise universal bonus. So that means there are loads of units that don't get cover bonuses? Weird!

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Jhul'vol
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 42

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#12 » Jan 12 2018 07:16

Impulse wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Impulse wrote:Is that for a specific mission or something? Which book is it in? I only have the basic rules that I got for free from my LGS.

I think it's in the terrain/cover section. It applies to all games. Infantry get +1 to their armor saves when in cover, vehicles/monsters only get it if they're in cover and 50% obscured.


Ohhhhh right that one. I thought that Monsters were the exception to an otherwise universal bonus. So that means there are loads of units that don't get cover bonuses? Weird!


If I remember correctly the rule is infantry gets +1 to their save for just being in area terrain, even if not obscured. All other models need to be both IN the terrain AND at least 50% obscured to claim the cover bonus.

While I already ran stealth suits quite a few times, I never quite experienced their longevity this way as my opponents most of the time got their psykers to just smite them to death.
Might try them again next game in 2 groups of 4 and a bunch of crisis in reserve. :nice:

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JancoBCN
Shas'Saal
Posts: 38

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#13 » Jan 12 2018 07:18

Impulse wrote:What does the keyword Infantry have to do with it?


That's an excellent question, and my answer is: this is a huge thing to bear in mind when evaluating or comparing different units.

For example, I was comparing once the "Inceptor Squad" from the Space marines with our Crisis suits, which have a very similar profile and role (Deep Strike, T5, a lot of close range dakka, Fly). There is a lot to discuss here, but one of the keys aspects is that you can drop those guys inside some ruins, or in a forest's limit, and be saving at 2+ thanks to the "Infantry" keyword, while with your Crisis you are not gona get cover almost ever (except with weird walls or oddly shaped buildings). This is huge. Why? because the space marine player can drop those guys hidding from the big guns of his enemy, while not caring about the saturation kind of firepower (lasguns, bolters, pulse weapons). Your Crisis teams will fall in a place to kill its target (vehicles? TEQ?), but if your opponent happens to have 30 guardsman with nothing else to do that offer 120 shoots at ya, he will make 6.667 wounds to them (not counting drones, that's not the point) with only 120 points (+ officers) worth of guys. If you are in cover, those shots are dealing you 3.33 wounds, and that's only for having that keyword.

TLDR: It gives you A LOT of tactical flexibility in where to put your guys, because they will have a lot of easy covers that allow them to still do their job. Specially important if the unit has some kind of deployment shenanigan going on (infiltrator, Deepstrike...)

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Draaen
Shas'La
Shas'La
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Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#14 » Jan 12 2018 11:57

I have been running 2 squads of 5 with drones. Sometimes I gave them ATS and other times without. It makes me think my better set up would be to go 3 squads of 3 with drones if I wanted to run that many. I could spread them out to give me more options for the beacon or deploy them closely for more ablative drone wounds.

I have run stealth suits with 1 shield generator out of a squad of 5. Problem is that what you want to save from ranged will probably go to a drone. The shield gen doesn't help until AP -3 while in cover and even then you go from 5+ to 4+ so i wasn't super impressed. Now If I got charged by something with a power fist or thunder hammer I could see it being more valuable. It was nice to have around T2 and T3 after their shield drones are mostly dead but I think I'd prefer moving the points into a drone controller or ATS.
All empires fall you just have to know where to push

AleksandrGRC
Shas'Saal
Posts: 84

Re: Stealth Suit Durability Analysis

Post#15 » Jan 16 2018 05:45

Had them in the open but backed with a strike team
The grenade hit in overwatch and i think 15 gene stealers did one suit and one drones worth of casualties.
:)

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