5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

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TauMan
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5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#1 » Feb 05 2018 09:22

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Question: Do the Tau live in the world of Ghost in the Shell?

Since the Tau are the most technologically advanced society in the 41st millennium (barring the Necrons); would it be safe to say the Tau live in the world of Ghost in the Shell? After all the Puretide chip is so Third Sphere; and we're now one and fifty years further along in the Fifth Sphere of Expansion. And cerebral implants are a thing, and even back in the second codex: Tau Empire, there were hardwired systems like drone controllers, and other forms of "cybernetic jewelry".

Codex: Tau Empire wrote:Hard-wired systems: Hard-wired systems take the form of cybernetic upgrades or warrior jewelry, and as such do not count towards the number of support systems a battlesuit character maytake. The same rules apply to the sytem whether or not it is hard-wired or hard-point mounted; the difference is that only the characters with access to wargear may choose them.

Systems listed as having the hard-wired option in the second Tau codex.
  • Drone controller
  • Blacksun filter
  • Multi-tracker
  • Target lock

Would it not then be safe to say the Tau live in the world very much like that depicted in the Ghost in the Shell manga, anime and movies? Certainly they would have their own form of the internet, and with cerebral implants, there would be no need for any kind of cell phone, or other interface device. They would have a direct connection to the internet via their implants. This sounds to me like Ghost in the Shell!

Also what are the implications for the game? Thoughts?

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Shas'O Ora
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#2 » Feb 05 2018 10:33

One problem I see there is that the ethereals are not able to "guide" the other castes anymore cause everybody has the same knowledge.

I also could imagine that military and politicians get special devices which are safer than the public common ones.
This could explain why our fire warriors still have antennas on their helmets.

You also have to recognise that with the spreading of new technologies the countermeasures are improving, too.
like
direct aiming --> heat seeking weapons --> flairs --> intelligent weapons --> electrical jammers --> back to direct aiming

Implications for the game could be that more support systems can be expected to be standard without having to use a slot or a drone.

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Beerson
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#3 » Feb 05 2018 11:03

The ghost in the shell would be too far fetched of a comparison, the Tau (as for now) haven't even reached posthuman level, else we would see lifetime extension (other then freezer), widespread cybernetics etc.

One exqmple would be longstrike, who connects with his hamnerhead a bit like capsuleers do in EVE universe, or like cyborgs do in GitS when driving cars (not many examples there though), but unlike these, he doesn't do it by the means of cybernetic implants, but analogically through his suit

Also the way Tau are portrayed, I don't think they have anything like the internet, more like some WAN mainly connecting terminals to server-library, and even if they had, without some way of conneting the internet through warp it wouldn't make much impact anyway, as with an empire of many star systems, even at light speed the connection would be way too slow to be relevant and thus the internet would be a number of WAN's just on a larger scale

The tau should become or already be posthuman society, but that wouldn't fit GW's setting, so they will remain in the awkward state of having some crude implants, but no life extension or ghost hacking :)

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#4 » Feb 05 2018 11:56

Eldar are the most advanced. To everyone else their technology looks like magic.
Tau technology looks like technology.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#5 » Feb 05 2018 12:28

In my mind, the idea of a Cyberpunk-like super-internet seems a bit contradictory to the position of the ethereals - surely free access to vast ammounts of information and somewhat secure lines of communication would lead to more dissent? But maybe Tau are above all that...

However, the way suits are operated and forces coordinated, as well as the primitive A.I. used by Drones suggests for me that the Infrastructure, so to speak, might be there, but access then would have to be very restricted. Now, restricted is just an invitation, but that raises the question if there is enough dissent inside the T'au empire to have "hackers" as such.
Hardwired Systems seem to imply some level of cybernetics, and the general fluff advancing more than a hundred years should have some impact as well.

I am admittedly not well versed in the Tau fluff, which is probaby why I am going for a Ghost in the Shell-themed Cadre anyways ^^

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#6 » Feb 05 2018 01:29

Finghain wrote:"surely free access to vast ammounts of information and somewhat secure lines of communication would lead to more dissent?"

"Now, restricted is just an invitation, but that raises the question if there is enough dissent inside the T'au empire to have "hackers" as such."

The etherals are essentially influencing the minds of other Tau to the point that in the mind of tau, whatever etherial say, even if it goes against logic or selfpreservation, is the truth, the right thing, and they don't even think it could be wrong, so anywhere there is etherial presence (all of tau empire) no tau with the mindset of a hacker can exist, and gue'la within the empire are too contoled to do that

Until we see connection of suit and mind like in the imperium knights, the ghost in the shell premise is far away, it's more like earlier version of the deus ex prequels

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#7 » Feb 05 2018 03:16

K'Pokk wrote:Eldar are the most advanced. To everyone else their technology looks like magic.
Tau technology looks like technology.

When I first heard of shuriken launchers, the first thing I thought was "but that's impossible!"
As for the rest of the eldar "technology", 90% of it is actually magic. Things like wraithbone rely heavily on psychers and soul energy.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#8 » Feb 05 2018 07:43

My two cents is that we already know that Tau hard-wired systems are simple at best. Tau don't use any transhuman (transtau?) augmentations, and the hard-wired systems only did straightforward things like allowing a unit to fire multiple weapons simultaneously or see in the dark.

Even something like interfacing with a tank requires a unique, experimental battlesuit, as in Longstrike's case. If the Tau really had hyperadvanced transhuman technology like in Ghost in the Shell, you'd expect Longstrike to be able to command his tank with neural implants, not a full-on prototype battlesuit.

In addition, a full command-and-control suite would clearly take quite a bit of hardware, and since Tau hard-wired technology seems limited to things like Multi-Trackers and Blacksun Filters, I doubt that an infantry or non-battlesuit character would have access to that kind of technology. In fact, GW's description of the Commander states that it has "huge data-processing capabilities" onboard the battlesuit- it's easy to imagine that these data-processors also assist the Shas'o's function as a commander, and not just as a warrior.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#9 » Feb 05 2018 07:51

K'Pokk wrote:Eldar are the most advanced. To everyone else their technology looks like magic.
Tau technology looks like technology.


Going by most background, Necrons are the most advanced. Their technological grasp eclipses even the Eldar (with the most pronounced examples being stuff like Inertialess Drives and possibly the Aeonic Orb).

At any rate, matching Tau technology with any other fictional universe is... difficult, not least due to the inherent problems in comparing any kind of fictional world with another (Try comparing the power of magic in different Fantasy settings, for example).

Technology itself is especially hard to compare, because technological development is extremely hard to quantify. In real-life it rarely if ever follows a neat linear path that you can apply universally to all cases. You also have to consider the differences between technological capacity and application - the United States and the Soviet Union during the Cold War could generally be considered to have roughly the same technological capacity (more or less) at a given point in time, but applied that technological development in very different ways. Even when analysing the technological development of a single organisation in a single faction can be difficult as technology and resources rarely get applied symmetrically - consider the vaunted German army of the Second World War, which is well-known for deploying weapons and equipment that was extremely advanced for the time, but was mostly supplied throughout the conflict by horse-drawn wagons that wouldn't be that out-of-place in a 19th century war.

This is also where the common argument that the Imperium is more technologically advanced than the Tau comes from, because while the Tau are considerably ahead in many technological fields by most reasonable metrics, the Imperium still has a few wonder-devices from the Dark Age of Technology that are beyond what the Tau can currently do (teleportation devices are the most commonly cited example).

What all this comes down to then, is the difference between 'can' and 'does'. Can the Tau make use of the technology shown in Ghost In The Shell (or it's closest Western analogue, Blade Runner)? I would say they probably could, if they put their minds to it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they do live in a world as depicted in those stories. Consider that one of the defining traits of the Tau is that they're pragmatists, and from a pragmatic point of view the most high-tech solution isn't always the best one. Indeed, when people ask me why I still insist on using an old Nokia 'brick' phone instead of a smartphone (which actually happens quite a lot), my response is generally a combination of "I only really need a mobile phone to receive phone calls and text messages, which the old Nokia still does just fine" and "Let's see what happens when one of those new smartphones falls onto a concrete surface...".

It's for this reason that my own Kakapo Canon(tm) has the Tau still making extensive use of tactile keyboards, physical display screens (albeit very sophisticated LCD type affairs) and pencils with physical paper (paper incorporating various high-tech synthetic substances to make it more durable and longer-lasting than regular paper, but still recognisably 'paper' nonetheless), because while they may not be as flashy as holograms and electronic reading devices, there are many aspects that make them more practical in a number of situations. Using a holographic display to control your Hammerhead or Manta, for example, might seem great at first until a temporary power outage causes your entire instrument panel to disappear. And it's much faster and easier to tape a torn page back together than it is to repair the display on an electronic device. Yes, with enough technological development and resources you can make the more high-end options more reliable and durable, but that can only help so much, especially in the context of a military combat environment where things get shot at a lot (to say nothing of combat in 40k where things also get hit with chainsaws a lot) - this is also why Kakapo Canon(tm) has most Tau military equipment being larger and more bulky than what you'd expect, because most of that size and mass consists of protective casings, armour plates and multiple system redundancies.

The same principles can also be applied to cybernetics. Sophisticated as they might be, they are still electronic devices, which means they can still go wrong or break down. Indeed, this is exactly what happened with the first iteration of rail rifles, the cerebrally-implanted targeting systems of which had a nasty habit of malfunctioning and frying the unfortunate Shas'la's brain (reflected in the 3rd edition rules by them having Gets Hot! If you use their hard-wired target lock option). This is an extreme example to be sure, but it highlights some of the risks involved with cerebral implants even with further progression (after all, no system is ever immune to bad luck). Even taking such factors aside, simple challenges like how you maintain an electronic device that's buried under your skull or medical complications like making sure the invasive implants don't drive the immune system berserk must also be considered. With things like this to consider, it's very likely that a sizeable portion of the Tau populace just doesn't see them as worth the risk, and avoids their use wherever possible (especially valuable Tau working in high-risk fields where you want as few potential risks as possible), or simply chooses not to use them based on more emotional reasons (a Shas'O who once served as a Pathfinder in team with first-generation rail rifles and still remembers the horror of what happened when their target locks went bad is probably going to pass on your fancy new cerebral network no matter how many new features it might offer).

What I'm trying to say is that having the capability to make use of fancy high-tech cerebral implants does not necessarily preclude the use of cell phones and interface devices, and while the Tau probably could recreate Ghost In The Shell if they wanted to, that doesn't necessarily mean they will. Finally, it's all down to personal interpretation - like I say, my own take is the Tau continuing to make use of relatively plain cell phones, interface devices and even pencils and paper, with more exotic stuff like holograms and cerebral implants being used in a supplemental role, because that seems to me more like what a pragmatic civilisation would do.
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#10 » Feb 05 2018 09:12

Temennigru wrote:
K'Pokk wrote:Eldar are the most advanced. To everyone else their technology looks like magic.
Tau technology looks like technology.

When I first heard of shuriken launchers, the first thing I thought was "but that's impossible!"
As for the rest of the eldar "technology", 90% of it is actually magic. Things like wraithbone rely heavily on psychers and soul energy.



Exactly. To primitive cultures advanced technology appears to be magic. :crafty:

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#11 » Feb 06 2018 12:54

K'Pokk wrote:
Temennigru wrote:
K'Pokk wrote:Eldar are the most advanced. To everyone else their technology looks like magic.
Tau technology looks like technology.

When I first heard of shuriken launchers, the first thing I thought was "but that's impossible!"
As for the rest of the eldar "technology", 90% of it is actually magic. Things like wraithbone rely heavily on psychers and soul energy.



Exactly. To primitive cultures advanced technology appears to be magic. :crafty:

Warp powers are not tech.
They ARE magic.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#12 » Feb 06 2018 01:39

Temennigru wrote:Warp powers are not tech.
They ARE magic.

C'tan powers are not magic, they are energy manipulation from pure-energy being of our universe.
Warp gods may be just have "sciences harnessed" power like C'tan, but from another reality/universe, thus from our universe they look like magic.


As for tau living in GITS-like setting, Kakapo has explained better than me my opinion (i would add another example of low tech use: some tau vehicles would have wheel too, not all of them could be antigrav).

Remember too that the GITS setting emphasise individuality, with each human is own island of knowledge with unlimited access to all human knowledge. This is not very "greater good" where everyone has its place and role.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#13 » Feb 06 2018 04:23

Kael'yn wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Warp powers are not tech.
They ARE magic.

C'tan powers are not magic, they are energy manipulation from pure-energy being of our universe.
Warp gods may be just have "sciences harnessed" power like C'tan, but from another reality/universe, thus from our universe they look like magic.

Warp entities didn't come from some other dimension. They were created by the disarray in the realm of souls. By all means they are magic incarnate. Ain't no tech there.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#14 » Feb 06 2018 04:51

Temennigru wrote:
Kael'yn wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Warp powers are not tech.
They ARE magic.

C'tan powers are not magic, they are energy manipulation from pure-energy being of our universe.
Warp gods may be just have "sciences harnessed" power like C'tan, but from another reality/universe, thus from our universe they look like magic.

Warp entities didn't come from some other dimension. They were created by the disarray in the realm of souls. By all means they are magic incarnate. Ain't no tech there.

"Tech" and "science" might not be the right words here. Both the C'tan and warp entities like the Chaos Gods draw their powers from alternate dimensions where the conventional laws of physics simply do not apply.

The C'tan are pure energy beings who have no physical forms- they exist in our reality but are extra-dimensional, things like length, width, and depth have no meaning to them. The C'tan manipulate energy and drain the life force of physical beings simply by existing. The C'tan may not use technology to achieve, but it's certainly scientifically explainable- there are no spells or incantations at work here.

The Chaos Gods, likewise, are not magic-users, and they are definitely extra-dimensional. The Chaos Gods cannot manifest in realspace, they have no physical forms, and physical laws and forces like time have no effect on them. They are just raw, psychic emotion. In a way they aren't really even gods, and can only interact with realspace through psychically-attuned mortals and the warp rifts created by them. The Chaos Gods' actual powers are very limited, as they are really just sentient emotion. The sorcery of Chaos is not the powers of the gods themselves, but rather the energy of the warp harnessed by mortals or daemons and permitted by their respective patrons in the Warp. So the Chaos Gods don't use magic nor technology, rather, they act through mortals who wield their power as magic.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#15 » Feb 06 2018 05:19

It should also be noted that the reverse of Arthur C. Clarke's third law also holds true - any magic that's sufficiently analysed becomes a science. In 40k emotions, faith, incantations and so on are all quantifiable forces in The Warp (as much as anything in The Warp can be quantified and measured at least). That's why the followers of the Chaos Gods are always trying to get more worshippers of their chosen deity, and the secret reason why The Emperor supposedly tried to suppress all religion during the Great Crusade. It could be argued that sorcery or psychic powers in 40k are really just an applied form of Warp energy manipulation called magic for convenience.

But I digress, as this is starting to get off-topic. Another factor that would count against universal cybernetics over physical devices is economics. In a civilisation as technologically advanced as the Tau, it's almost certain that such devices are cheap, and easily produced, which can be a big advantage. Virtually any colony could put together a pre-fabricated manufacturing site and start cranking out locally made physical devices like cellphones and display screens, but even cybernetics like hard-wired support systems require not only manufacturing capability able to produce components small enough, but also medical infrastructure that's sophisticated enough to handle implanting them in the first place, and not everywhere in the Tau Empire is going to have that kind of infrastructure (certainly not everywhere in the Farsight Enclaves, which have always been described as possessing less resources and a smaller industrial/technological base than the Tau Empire).

The cost factor can also be seen in the cybernetics that are reflected in the rules - note how only Tau character models can take hard-wired support systems. That implies that they're expensive and complicated to produce, limiting their proliferation (otherwise every Tau model would get them). It also explains why hardpoint-mounted support systems are still a thing, since they're presumably much cheaper and easier to build and use, and can thus be employed in much greater quantities.
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#16 » Feb 06 2018 06:35

Temennigru wrote:
Kael'yn wrote:
Temennigru wrote:Warp powers are not tech.
They ARE magic.

C'tan powers are not magic, they are energy manipulation from pure-energy being of our universe.
Warp gods may be just have "sciences harnessed" power like C'tan, but from another reality/universe, thus from our universe they look like magic.

Warp entities didn't come from some other dimension. They were created by the disarray in the realm of souls. By all means they are magic incarnate. Ain't no tech there.


The eldar would have a thing or two to tell you about that. Are souls any less real than the physical universe? To the denizens of the warp the physical universe is strange and alien, and there are an infinite number of unverses. Is our universe/dimension superior in status? No, it is just where we live.

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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#17 » Feb 06 2018 11:53

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Let's remember we're talking about the military application of GITS technology in the Tau Empire and Farsight Enclaves; and not the culture of future Japan as portrayed in either the movies or the anime.

Note going all the way back to the first Tau codex, there has always been some kind of cybernetic implants, whether it be external "warrior" jewelry, as seen in the recent GITS live action movie. (Sorry, but I couldn't find any photos of the beginning of the movie, that shows the external implants.) Therefore, GITS type cybernetics have always been part of the Tau; but no GW or BL author has ever really done anything with it.

Things that would not be exist or be allowed in Tau culture:
  • No "living your life online" - any Tau internet would be used for communications, research, accessing databases, remote conferencing, remote medical procedures etc.
  • Any Tau internet would exist only a planets and stations near planets.
  • No kind of "virtual reality" substitution of life, or an alternative life lived through an avatar.
  • No evading the cultural and society norms (The state run internet of China being an example)
  • No creation of a Tau "transhuman", the Ethereals aren't going to let the Tau go down the path of the Necrontyr -> Necron.
  • A military ARPANET would exist on air caste vessels and stations; but an WIN-T (see EDIT below) would be part of any military operations, only as long as there were sufficient satellite/drone communication network in place to support it.
  • Not everyone would have implants - external or internal. Implants will be for a specific purposes, whether military or civilian. (See the point above)
  • There won't be just one interface. Any networked system will have more than one interface, as there will multiple redundant systems (especially for military use). So implants are practical, but they're not the only system used. Meaning you'll still have helmet and battlesuit HUDs, and your eye retina HUDs etc.

EDIT: After posting I found this online article on the battlefield internet, coming to a battlefield near you in the future: Infomational Warfare. The U.S. Army is currently in development of what they're calling WIN-T or Warfighter Information Network-Tactical.

What it would mean to have implants as part of a total integrated Netcentric Combat System?

  • Communications networked from Korvatta fleets in space, all the way down to the shas'ui squad leader. Meaning that all pertinent information is available to all levels of command in the battlespace. All of it available in real time.
    This is something the Imperium should be able to do, but can't. So, much for being more technologically advanced!
  • Real time updates of battlefield conditions at all levels of the battlespace.
  • Coordination of ground, air, and space units in dealing with the threat of enemy movements and attacks
  • Increased reaction times as information is decimated to the proper units, whether ground, air, or space

What a GITS implant specifically could do for a 5th Sphere firewarrior commander (should be 4th sphere, but okay we'll go with GW's version.)
  • For the team shas'ui/shas'vre:
    -Superior "hands free" and "voice free" wireless communication link to all other squad leaders, cadre shas'nel, shas'o as well as to cadre drones, transports, and tanks.
    Note, that like GITS a firewarrior would be able to "talk" online without actually speaking! And the firewarrior so equipped could switch back-and-forth between voice communication and back to online communication with ease.
  • For the cadre shas'nel:
    - Superior "hands free" and "voice free wireless communication link to all squad leaders, and the cadre shas'o as well as to cadre drones, transports, and tanks.
    - Instant updates to his cadre's tactical situation, updates to GPS position of his squad versus other squads in real time.
    - Instant "real time" updates to his cadre's tactical situation vis a vis the other squads of the cadre.
    - Updates to position and disposition of enemy
    - Ability to track needed resources - Pathfinders, Marker drones, Piranhas and Tanks
  • For contingent and higher shas'o:
    - Superior "hands free" and "voice free" wireless communication link to all cadre commanders; but networked to higher levels of the netcentric command; including kor air units, fio support units, and higher levels of command.
    - Instant "real time" updates to the tactical situation of each cadres in the battlespace.
    - Instant updates to position and disposition of friendly air resources: transport and ground attack
    - Instant updates to the disposition and movement of enemy ground and air units
    - Secure links to other cadre commanders, air caste squadron commanders, earth caste support team commanders etc.
  • Fire caste Crisis battlesuit pilots, and Air caste aircraft pilots
    - Superior "hands free" and "voice free" wireless communication links to all team/squadron members
    - Greater interface between battlesuit/aircraft A.I. units, creating a seamless interaction between pilot and vehicle. That is to say the pilot becomes their vehicles. Yes, this is the same kind of link that Imperial Titans pilots have, but Imperial Navy fighter pilots do not have; and for that matter neither do Imperial Guard tank commanders! Only the Adeptus Astartes come anywhere close to this level of integration between their user and power armour. See, we're still more advanced; because we don't have superstition to get in the way!
  • Tank and light skimmer pilots can have the same interface between themselves and their vehicles. Who needs that fancy XV02 Pilot Battlesuit, when you can interface directly with you tank? XV-02, that's so Third Sphere technology!
  • FOR ALL CASTES AND RANK LEVELS: Instant upgrades! No, need to change your installed hardware; just download the latest earth caste upgrade.
    "Longstrike 3.0 is now available from the Fio App store."
    "Hey, want to be a Firesight marksmen, but don't have time to practice? Download the latest Firesight 4.2.0 app from the Fio App Store."
    "Need that Puretide expertise in battle? Forget that 'fries-your-brain' engram chip; try the new Puretide 5.0 app! Available with the proper authorization from the Fio App Store."

Finally, a word on the Enclaves
According to the goofy fluff coming out of GW, the Earth caste of Viro'los has time and resources to clear the entire surface of Tinek'la to reveal it's diamond under surface; while having the time and resources to terraform Vior'los after the Tyrannids eat the entire biosphere. (??? :-? ???) Now we can dismiss this as Gue'la propaganda, but it does point to the Enclaves not being strapped for resources anymore; and the newer codices since 6th edition, haven't restricted what the Enclaves can field in battle.
However, having said all that, necessity is still the mother of invention, and after two hundred and thirty years of continually fighting orks; there's probably b een a lot of innovation and technological development across the Damocles Gulf. One only has to look at Israel, and it's innovation in terms of both military and civilian technology, to see what the Enclaves might be like. They certainly have plenty of resources, what with four entire star systems; but maybe not scruples of the Tau Empire. And with no Ethereals to tell them what they can and cannot do; well, who knows how far they went with their GITS cybernetic technology? In my personal canon TauManTM, they even have fully functional positronic brains. And the shas'o of my army is Shas'O'Xutka't'shova who was a cyborg; is now an android with an entirely mechanical body.

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Last edited by TauMan on Feb 06 2018 01:58, edited 6 times in total.
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Beerson
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Re: 5th Sphere Technology: Ghost in the Shell?

Post#18 » Feb 06 2018 01:31

I am honestly starting to lose the siggt of the discussion here, are we talking about what Tau likely are now after the timelag, about what they should be, or what we want them to be?

I wouldn't refference the live action movie in regards to GitS universe, most of the community prefers to pretend that one didn't happen, for a good reason

You write that etherials would not let tau go transhuman, though most of the stuff you list requires it by default, instant knowlage about all parts of battlefield, that's not just retina implant, that's full on cyberbrain

It would be interesting to see tau go the "capsuleer" path, getting bunch of extensive cerebral implants to allow direct mindlink to the suit along with instant communication with shared visuals and whatnot inside a cadre (I doubt it would go past that, maybe in the enclaves, but etherials like to keep castes separate, with more analog or leader to leader, or rather leader to strategist)

Also when you said your cyborg character became android, you mean that you changed the character from being tau to an AI (maybe something like ghostkeel just more advanced)?

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