I know photon grenades have been universally panned in every forum, but hear me out (or read me out as the case may be). With 5th edition here and objective taking and holding of great import, is it right to merely sacrifice your scoring units, especially if their holding an objective? Here's an idea:

When an enemy approaches a defended objective, move your firewarriors so that the 1st line is exactly 3" at the middle or rear of the base. Once the enemy assaults, they will be denied their 3" maximum distace while you can still hold that objective. If you can set yourself up in cover that way, more power to you. With the photon grenades denying the enemies' bonus attacks, you can potentially hold that enemy for an extended period of time. Note that winning and driving off the enemy is NOT the goal. Holding them is. While holding them up, the enemy can't shot you and you still can keep a solid hold on that objective. Help may be needed as large squads and/or superpowerful units can still overwhelm you in the 1st round, but for those who fight using the Kauyon, this may still be a great opportunity to spring a trap. A unit defending an objective can be great bait!

Yes, I know it's not perfect but no strategy is. I'm also working on applying it correctly, but I have seen it work. In fact, the first time I did it was how I realized this strategy. Just remember that this strategy is not about being offensive anough in CC but defensive enough.

Kudos to you and your plan. I see no problem with your logic, so I'll try to put it into use next game day. Your post and several other peoples have convinced me that using photon grenades should be almost mandatory when facing MEQ's or at least two assault squads from any other army.

A very good idea, though you need to be careful about distances because of the automatic pile in. That could feasibly draw the rear models out of the scoring zone.

I've always thought Photon Grenades had their place, and that place is everywhere in 5th. In addition to your strat, if it doesn't look like the Fire Warriors are going to hold for long enough, you can bring in your Shas'El or 'O, Stealth Suits, Vespids, or Kroot if you have them handy. While the first two aren't really supposed to be in CC, they'll be able to get there in time and they might be enough to turn the tide, especially with charging attacks. If they have drones, even better: at I4, drones usually can have their attacks, and then eat it. P 'Nades basically give Fire Warriors the chance to survive the first round of combat, and that gives you a chance to reinforce them.

That's why I said the 1st line should be 3"! Please pay attention.

Easy now...he was just trying to help the conversation. What he added to the conversation added value--don't just put your first line of warriors 3" away, make sure the whole unit is 3" away and/or cannot get engaged with a 6" charge, so that NO MODEL that is assaulting you gets within 6", including once the combat is over, and the pile-in move occurs.

It's probably not as simple as "just stay 3" away". You'll have to counter-charge carefully, thinking about the later results, etc.

Just remember, the automatic pile in is not "everyone has to try to engage someone" it is "all move up to 6" to someone who already engaged". So yes, the rear models who normally wouldn't be engaged in the first round may now get to fight, it's only if they are within 2" of someone already engaged. I have a question though. Why not merely have the rear line be within 3"? Wouldn't that still allow you to score and whatever casualties you have in the coming turns can be removed from the front? This may take the unit out of range for shooting/assault, and the read line is controlling the object while denying it as well. The only problem with my version would be removed front line casualties in assault minimizes the number of counterattacks, but then again the Tau's stats in CC are so bad just surviving in CC without perishing to sweeping advance seems lucky to any army competent in CC.

Yep...I believe you have to remove casualties from the rear of the unit, however, so be careful with that strategy. I remember reading that in the rulebook, or hearing it on a podcast--don't have the RB in front of me now.

As for me, I take photon grenades always--I think it's pretty significant to reduce a charging unit's attacks by 1/2 to 1/4, depending on the unit attacking you. A tactical marine squad on the charge becomes significantly less scary, for example.

Edit by Eiglepulper: You don't *have* to remove casualties from any particular place in the unit. You *can* remove casualties from any part of the unit who are not actually engaged in the fighting but who are locked in the combat because they form part of the whole unit, and these models may be selected from those in the rear echelons.

Indeed, the purpose of allowing you to remove casualties at your discretion, is so that your Special Weapons guys survive long enough to fight. In our case, what do we have? An honor blade? Hah! Ok so it does not help us at all, as Tau, but where a Chain Fist guy might be there, you'd want to keep him around long enough to strike.

The only thing to be cautious of, when removing the front most models, is that you must maintain 2" distance between you and someone who can legally attack, in order to attack back. If you remove the wrong guy, you might lose some attacks back.

I have seen those compulsory pile ins win games. Once you are charged, you must consolidate, and that has pulled important units out of contesting possitions in the final turn, or pulled them so that they were outside of even a 6" move, 6" run (D6 Willing). It can be a very nasty tactic. Some wording above mentioned that it may be optional. Is that true?

So yes, if you get charged, your whole team moves towards the team that charged you, pulling you completely off of the objective in many cases.

Which is exactly why wrote this:



Note that it says 1st line. The guys who get the charge. The guys who won't have to move in. The guys who won't get pulled off the objective. Get it?

Gorin :
Currently, your remarks are bordering on rudeness towards the other members of this forum. The other posters are adding a lot to your quickly-planned-out tactic and developing it further, something that will not continue to happen if you are disregarding their comments to quote yourself and question the intelligence of the posters (I was reading between the lines in your last couple of posts). While what you say is important to this thread, so is what everyone else is.

Now for my comments on this. I don't know about you, but I cannot gauge distances accurately, i.e. with no uncertainty, even if it is such a short distance as three inches. You cannot measure distances unless they are called for, which means the three inch radius around an objective can only be measured after the game ends. If you are one-eighth of an inch of, that assaulting unit has gone from not doing anything to contesting the objective, which is a big turn.

How long will that Firewarrior unit need to stay in close combat? Two or three turns? Possibly more, as the case may be. I think that expecting a squad of Firewarriors, even with Photon Grenades and all other sorts of nice upgrades, to survive that long against an assault-oriented squad is a little ridiculous, even if they only have to hold on for one turn. Sure, it can happen, but would you really want to wager the game on that?

Please put a little more effort into your subsequent posts, especially to take care that you are not sounding mean or rude.

I have to agree with SpartanTau. Your comments did sound kinda snarky. I'm sure you weren't trying to talk down to anyone, but its something to be mindful of for the future. Without the benefit of face to face communications, the subtleties of tone, facial expression, etc get lost.

Regarding the use of photon grenades (and lots of other things), you may want to take a look at T0nka's article here.

The whole article doesn't just deal with photon grenades, though, so I've grabbed the relevant part:


All in all, I like your idea. I'm not the best distance estimator out there, so I might have a bit of difficulty pulling it off, but I'll have to keep it in mind and give it a go. When you playtest it, take some notes for us and post a bat rep (preferably with pictures, if possible) for us. Seeing the tactic in the context of a game with some accompanying pictures to help demonstrate would be pretty useful, I think.

Don't forget unit cohesion. They need to be 2" max distance chain.

My apologies if I seemed rude. That was not my intention. It just seemed to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that people keep addressing the rear of the group being pulled away, therefore losing the 3" needed, when I clearly said the front be placed properly. with the front place thus, you don't need to worry about the rear. That's why I quoted and repeated myself. And for the record, there was no "inbetween the lines" for what I said. It is what is is, no more, no less.

Again, my apologoes.

P.S. Surviving in close combat for a protracted period is not s ridiculous as it my seem. It's not just about killing, it's about not getting killed. I've done it on many occasions in the past with bewildered looks on my opponents.

P.P.S. If you're having trouble guessing distance to the objective, just get one of your unit directly on it. Then you can move appropriately.

Actually, they should be as close together as possible, if spread out too far only one or two of those models can be in the right position, allowing the enemy to assault in a way that pulls even those guys off. Plus, even though blast weapons can do more damage to a close knit group, it's more likely the blast will miss, now.

One more thing. This isn't criticism, as much as what I would do if faced with this situation.

I would remove any of my casualties from the front line in a manner that left the combat still viable, thus pulling your front line closer. It may work it may not, but there's a lot of variables going on in the furball

I like your strat Gorin. I've always put photon grenades on my Fire warriors. And its for that reason that my brother can never kill them. i had my Shas'ui kill an apothecary in a command squad just because they weren't able to completly kill my guys on the first or second attack. without the photon grenades they would have died on turn one.

Although the person that commented earlier about Shas 'Els' and O's not being meant for CC, those guys get three or four attacks minimum, I denied my opponent victory solely because (this was during 4th ed.) his only scoring unit was his command squad and i got it below half strength and it failed its morale check.

But back on topic, photon grenades are a life saver, and i've used them enough to know. Why people before didn't put them on i don't know but i've always known they were a neccesity. of course when you verse space marines time and time again, you need everything you can get your hans on.

P.S. sorry if its lengthy.

Just my two cents;

Photon grenades seem like a good idea, but frankly they are just delaying the inevitable. All you do is remove the charge bonus, which is annoying but most assault infantry will still eat your FW's alive without the +1A it grants. It's a 'bugger, we ended up here' wargear choice, not a 'yay, I can do this now' choice.

As for the other stuff (positioning the unit, making use of cover), they are tangential ideas. Photon grenades are not neccessary for either of them to work, they just enhance you survivability slightly.

A better idea would be to actively avoid combat, and use those points elsewhere on something useful.

One way or another, as Tau you are using points to mitigate the hurt of close combat while putting the hurt on them. Spending points on firepower(XVs namely) and mobility( devilfish) have the same motive. Keeping his assault units locked in combat not killing as much as he'd like, and not claiming objective or even contesting them, puts hurt on him, all for the cost of a missile pod. With the advent of run and numerous ld10/fearless units making pinning less reliable, keeping units useless whether they take up space or are wiped off the board fits in the mission. Even in annihilation missions, keeping a unit locked not claiming KPs and not having to worry about them for a turn or two will allow you to focus fire on the other units, easing tactical decision making.

Yeah, but they are not reliant on the enemy charging you. They work regardless.



I don't follow. Dude, the photon grenade is cheap, because it sucks. Wow, they don't get the charge bonus. Most assault units won't even notice that, they'll still steam-roller FW's in combat in a single round, and run down the survivors in a Sweeping Advance. At best (and I'm talking seriously bad rolling by your opponent), you might hold in combat for a turn, but he's still winning tactically; his infantry are making use of their superior close-combat ability, your FW's are losing valuable shooting opportunities and flailing uselessly with the butts of their rifles. You won't really delay an assault unit, you'll speedbump them Kroot-style. It actually works to their advantage to toy with your FW's in combat, because you can't win, and so long as they are in combat you can't shoot them (your advantage), you have to either wait it out or in desperation charge in Kroot.

The only time I can think photons might work is if someone tries to tarpit you with Termagaunts. They'll get shot to death in a straight-up shoot-out, so as per above they are better off denying you shots by holding you in combat. Photon grenades deny them their 2nd attack (from charging), so combined with your large squad size and decent save, you can probably survive a charge, and maybe even draw combat. However, even if you somehow win combat (I imagine you would've whittled the brood down to something manageable before they could reach assault range), they have still denied valuable pulse rifle shooting, which could've been directed into his more dangerous Warriors and Ravenors, or Genestealers, or other tarpit broods.

Generally-speaking though, they are wasted points. I'd rather get a MP, it actually kills things as opposed to an upgrade which only works when you end up in combat (which is the last place Tau should be).