Theambit :
Ok, then am I right in assuming that you agree that a unit composed entirely of the same pinning weapon, such as Pulse Carbines in a Firewarrior squad, can only ever cause one pinning test on a target unit? That's cool if you do or don't, but proof is kind of necessary for this stuff... That was also the topic that my short essay was discussing and the stance that I took on the issue with the necessary support, so if it really didn't say anything to you, I guess I didn't make that point clear enough.

Yes, we do agree that a barrage weapon, even if inflicting six unsaved wounds, will only cause one pinning test. In this case, it is both a singular firing weapon and a single weapon type. Yes, we also agree that a unit targeted by pinning weapons either has to decide to "Go to Ground," and then be automatically pinned, or use a regular save with the potential to be pinned. I brought that up in the previous incarnation of the thread to try to support the fact that multiple wounds from multiple firing weapons cause one pinning test, based on the language used in that portion of the pinning rules.

Nah, the whole thing is that I don't agree that multiple wounds from a carbine FW squad only inflict one wound. You're correct in our agreeing to the rest though. I realize proof is needed and I think from what it says as a singular passage as written, my side is supported. The first paragraph deals with how pinning tests are forced. This is where I draw that one per weapon can be possible. The second paragraph deals with the outcome of a forced pinning test. GW's sloppy grammer in this paragraph or lack of encompasing the greater idea shouldn't affect how you read the first portion. If it does, you're going into what you feel they meant or what they should have meant etc...

Sorry I didn't mean to invalidate your long post, I just felt you were going out of your way to argue that all shots occur simultaniously, which I don't think you needed to support, as we all know that to be true. I just do not see it affecting the interpretation of the pinning section.

Squad A shoots squad B with 10 assault 1 pinning weapons. Squad B fails 3 saves. Squad B suffered 3 wounds from 3 different pinning weapons. A pinning weapon has the pinning special rule which says it forces a pinning test. So now, because Squad B suffered all the wounds at once, it now takes 3 pinning tests all at once. Whether you choose to roll them one at a time or not is your call but matters little in the end if you fail one, but could help if you only have one colour of dice.

As an aside, the fact that a markerlight can reduce the LD of a unit for all pinning tests inflicted by a single unit, suggests that at the least, the rail rifle + carbine squad will cause upwards of two. Of that I am certain, not sure if that was argued.

Theambit :
I don't think we are debating about Pathfinders. I agree that they can (when equipped with a mix of Pulse Carbines and Rail Rifles) cause two Pinning tests. What this debate is about is multiple Pinning tests from the same weapon type in the same unit.

Ok, so I am going to argue this without citing anything from the rulebook except the "If a unit other than a vehicle..." one, since that is what this debate is about.

• A unit fails three saves from a squad firing Pulse Carbines (1 shot Pinning weapons). This satisfies the condition If a unit... suffers any unsaved wounds
• The Pulse Carbine is the weapon that inflicted the wounds, and as a pinning weapon, can force a pinning check.
• One pinning test is made; the Pulse Carbine is the only weapon causing any wounds, even if there are multiple carbines. This singular test completes the act of pinning a unit, as per it [the unit] must immediately take a Pinning test.
• The test is then either passed or failed; if failed, the unit goes to ground.

The unit passes or fails the Pinning test, as the unit passed or failed the multiple pinning wounds from a single pinning weapon, the Pulse Carbine. Hopefully this clears things up a little.

Tertiary Topic
Codex rules override the Rulebook. The Pulse Carbine rules (Codex: Tau Empire, Page 29) state "Any unit suffering at least one wound from pulse carbine fire must test for pinning." I actually feel pretty dumb for not bringing this up earlier. For Pulse Carbines, based on RAW, any number of wounds caused by them only cause one Pinning test, as per their codex-specific rules which override those found in the BRB.

If that doesn't settle this debate, I don't know what will...

Damn, I'm sorry, I should have checked my codex. . . I honestly got caught up playing SM lately, where they say "see BGB rules for ______". I didn't think to check if they said anything specific in our codex.

So I back down from that aspect of the carbines. I still think you're wrong from the perspective of the BGB but because our codex overrides it, it's moot.

Your tertiary topic on markerlights is wrong in a sense, after reading the ML entry, it says the -1 to LD is imposed for ALL pinning tests inflicted by a unit. So the pathfinder squad of carbines and rail rifles and a single ML would cause both pinning tests to be taken at -1 since both were caused by a single unit.

Anyway, thanks for bringing that up as it settles the carbine arguement, but now the topic will switch to multiple rail rifle wounds as that isn't mentioned in the codex. But I don't think I'm getting anywhere with you on this one, so I think I'll have to call it a no win situation. Thanks for the fun debate.

Theambit :
It was a fun debate, and I'm not even going to work on the Rail Rifle aspect. I did mess up the Markerlight one; I skimmed over that little word "any," and I'm going to remove that from my previous post just so it doesn't confuse anyone.

Good thing we're not talking about anything else right now; I don't think my brain can take it!

Yeah I'm done with the arguments for a bit, the glue from my titan is getting to my head. But I'm almost done up to the waist

As for the whole issue, I don't think either camp will convince the other one, and sadly I doubt GW will ever FAQ it or at least not for a long time. Their recent interview I read where the designer basically said he didn't care about tournement players and rules junkies sort of saddened me a bit.

As it relates to this thread... updated FAQ from GW regarding pinning tests...

WARHAMMER 40,000:
RULEBOOK
Official Update Version 1.1

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490286a_FAQ_40Krulebook_version1_1.pdf

Q: How many Pinning tests can a squad firing multiple Pinning weapons cause on the enemy it is shooting? (p31)
A: Each unit can only cause a maximum of one Pinning test on each enemy unit wounded, per turn, regardless of the number of wounds caused, unless specifically stated otherwise.

Not that I've ever had the opportunity to force my enemy to take a pinning check, but I've understood the pinning test rule to function as stated above since at least 4th edition.

Sid'Vektor

Thanks for the update Sid. I saw that the other day and will be re-working the main post accordingly.

I personaly use pinning in my army from my FW. I know that it is not the most sound tactic from our army's standpoint but I enjoy using it. My Local Meta is a wide smattering of armys so it is hard to know what I will face from time to time when I play. So I now have a WarFish loadout with a full squad of carbine FW inside starting in reserve (x2) each game I play.

The only problem with using pinning in general is that there are so many armys that have the capability of Fearless that it is almost pointless anymore to take them. So if need be I just proxy the PR instead of the PC due to all my FW are modled with the PC.

The only armys that I have ever been able to pin were, if my memory serves me correctly: Nids, IG, Eldar, and orks.

Just thought I would throw out my 2 pennys.

Alright everyone I have done some research and hopefully I can convey this without beating the dead horse on this topic.

1. With the new supplement from GW to the BRB they have clairified that a unit being fired upon by "pinning" weapons will only take one (1) Ld test per unit fireing upon it. NOT one (1) test for every "pinning" weapon.

2.







3. All armys are susceptiable to pinning. Only thoes units who carry the Fearless USR are immune to Pinning.

4. As for Markerlights ,


The markerlight hits do not carry over from fireing unit to fireing unit, in order to cause a drop in Ld value you must expend a markerlight token for each unit attempting to confer a Pinning test.


I hope this can help clear up some of the confusion surrounding this topic.