Lets say I have Flechette Dischargers on a squad of piranha.

Someone charges that squad of piranha. Does every piranha's Flechette Discharger hit every model in the squad or does every model in the squad pick out its target and only that piranha's Flechette Discharge hits those models.

In other words does you have Piranha 1 2 and 3.
the opponent has squad with model A-I.

If model ABC hit Piranha 1, model DEF hit Piranha 2 and model GHI hit Piranha 3 does.....
Piranha 1 hit A-I with its Flechette Discharge or only ABC?

I can see an argument that it only hits ABC per the rules (sort of) and an argument why the rules just aren't clear.

Happy hunting.

I believe it is clear in "squadron" Assaults, you are attacking the model that you direct your attacks against. So Pirahana B and C can only launch their Flechette's against models that are actually engaging them. This is a good thing IMO, otherwise B and C could be destroyed when not actually engaged.

If you read the vehicle squadron rules, It indicates that assault works just like a combat vs. a regular unit minus the pile in move and leadership checks. So you can lose vehicles that are not in b2b with attacking models.

But the question still stands, how does the Flechette work in a vehicle squadron?

The way I've been playing it is just to say all models attacking take 1 hit from the Flechette.

The argument could be made that each model takes 1 hit from each flechette, which means a unit of 10 marines assaulting 4 piranha each with a flechette... would be 40 flechette rolls... 20 wounds! Somebody please prove this to be true.

Can't proove it but I'd say it would work like each Marine taking a hit from each Flechette Discharger because the FD rules say any enemy coming within range so fluff wise it would make sense.

Bolter & Chainsword says this is how they would play it.

Then this would be a very fun thing to put in a list!(pricey though)
I can imagine the horror of an ork player when they find out that their entire squad of boys has disappeared on their turn.

Vehicle squadron rules state that damage is divided among all of the piranhas, so if you take 3 penetrating hits and have 2 piranhas, one gets hit twice and the other only gets hit once.

would be cool indeed, but don't balance your list around it hey. I think the piranha has other objectives to worry about instead of waiting for an assault. the better idea would be: don't get assaulted!

Its not a bad idea to add FDs to a Piranha wing then. It makes opponents less likely to try engage them and more likely to shoot.

My experience in my last 4 games has been that dreads are used to assault piranhas since they cannot be harmed by flechettes.

Yes it is a bad idea. Opponents see multiple drones, multiple burst cannons and so on on fast vehicles heading for them. They are going to shoot at them anyway. They don't need any further encouragement.

Piranhas are open-topped, so damage is going to be much easier attained. Adding an expensive vehicle upgrade which probably isn't going to see any use at all is just bad use of points. Flechettes on a full squadron of Piranhas cost the same as a Firestorm XV8.

Fast vehicles shouldn't be getting caught in combat anyway!

E.

Well, I don't know. I certainly see your point --especially with fusion blaster-equipped piranha. But if you are running burst cannon piranha and sometimes use them as a screening force for other units like vespid or battlesuits or whatever, I guess I can see the appeal of multiple flechettes. I think you are right about the cost though. I couldn't see adding them to really big squadrons. Teams of two (or maybe three?) might be alright though.

Indeed so, but I still think they are unnecessary unless you plan to use your Piranhas as tank hunters/character hunters and arm them with FBs. This requires proximity to the enemy, and thus FDs might just have a benefit.

I've just been over to Warseer and this thread on the same subject as we are discussing has gone to three pages!

E.

Well, thanks for that link E. It was entertaining if not enlightening. By the way, let me just say how thankful I am that "discussions" with the majority of you guys are a lot more friendly than those same discussions are on other forums. You guys rock!

I have to admit that I haven't really come to a conclusion as to which approach is correct after reading through all three pages of the Warseer thread.

It doesn't seem fair or balanced that a full wing of Piranhas with flechettes would almost certainly decimate many CC units regardless of the size. In the Warseer thread they gave the example of a unit of 32 hormagaunts attacking 5 Piranha with FDs. The Piranhas clearly come out on top statistically killing more than twice that number of Hormagaunts and they do so before the Hormies even ave a chance to attack. But then again, there are problems with the other conclusions you could draw as well.

To summarize the three Warseer pages for those who didn't read through it all, as I see it, here are the aspects you have to consider:

1. Attacks on a squadron are allocated to all models in the squadron --not just the one(s) in base-to-base contact with the assaulters.
2. The rules for flechette dischargers say that the FD's attacks are directed at models attacking the vehicle.
3. Based on the above points, in the end, you have to decide what constitutes an attack on the vehicle within the context of a squadron.

Here are the conclusions that you could draw:
Option 1:
The attacks are made against the squadron not the vehicle. Therefore, the FD is broken in fifth when dealing with vehicle squadrons. No attacks can be made. This seems like rules-lawyering to me, but it could be argued. I don't really think this is solid though.

Option 2:
The Tau codex says FDs may be used against all models making attacks against the vehicle. Therefore, only models attacking that vehicle are eligible to receive wounds from the FDs. In other words, every model making an attack on the squadron rolls one 4+ for the FDs regardless of the number of vehicles in the squadron. This is true even though a vehicle could be destroyed without being in base-to-base with the attackers since the attack was not technically against that vehicle.

Option 3:
a) If assaulters attack one model in a squadron, they have attacked the squadron as a whole.
b) Assaulters can damage multiple vehicles in a squadron without being in base-to-base contact with all vehicles.
c) If a vehicle in a squadron can potentially be damaged by assaulters, it IS being attacked. This is true whether or not there are actual models in base-to-base contact with itself. [/Logical conjecture based on common sense but not on a specific rule]
Therefore, ALL vehicles fire their flechette dischargers at ALL attacking models since all vehicles in the squadron are being attacked as a whole.


Honestly, I'm leaning toward option two because it seams the most balanced option. However, I don't like the fact that vehicles can be damaged without technically being attacked and therefore are not allowed to defend themselves. This is like saying: I must destroy five tanks. I have five grenades which a plan to drop down the hatch of the tanks to kill the crews. I will drop all five grenades down the hatch of the first tank and therefore destroy all five tanks before the other four tanks get a chance to shoot at me too.

I love 40K, but sometimes you just have to laugh at the sort of conclusions we are forced to draw...

Well walker squads in combat can attack back if with in 2" of at least one walker in base to base. Therefore, I think, that that part of the rule could also be translated over. So if a vehicle is with in 2 inches of a vehicle in base to base with the enemy they should be able to fire their FD also.

That makes sense to me. But, of course, it would only work as a house rule. Good thought though.

Errrm....that would be nice in theory but let's look at the rulebook. I think you have to remember a couple of things concerning walkers and assaults:

P.73 BRB says that
"walkers fight like infantry models" (very first line under "Walkers and Assaults")
They are a particular type of vehicle which uses infantry rules when involved in CC, as they have a Weapon Skill and can therefore fight back. They may fight as a squadron, as declared on P.73 BRB under "Squadrons of Walkers", taking damage as per vehicle squadrons but attacking back as per the infantry rules.

To contrast:

P.64 BRB says that
"As usual for combats against vehicles, there is no defenders' reaction..[...] etc"

Our Flechette Dischargers are not close combat weapons. They are a piece of vehicular wargear specific to the vehicle for which they were purchased as an upgrade. Piranhas cannot fight as a squadron since they have no weapon skill rating. Therefore none of this concept of "being within 'x' inches of another vehicle which has been assaulted" has any relevance where the use of Flechettes is concerned. Each vehicle is treated individually; if it has not been *actually* assaulted, then its FDs cannot be used.

E.

If its liable for wounding rolls, its being assaulted...Unless the magic wound fairy visits them.

Well then, the magic wound fairy must be able to visit all combats, whether vehicle-involved or troops-type.

P.24 BRB "Remove Casualties", paragraph two:
"Note that any model in the target unit can be hit, wounded and taken off as a casualty....."

P.39 BRB "Removing Casualties":
"All of the rules for removing shooting casualties apply in close combat".

P.64 BRB "Assault Phase":
"..[...]..enemy models roll to hit and for armour penetration against the squadron as a whole. Damage results..[..]..and are allocated against the squadron..[...]..in the same way as a normal combat"



E.

Which then in theory should work the other way as well. If the pirahna can take damage in the combat then it can discharge fletchettes into the combat. The rule works both ways.

The next question would then be how do you allocate the hits? Does everyone take a hit from each FD (potentially 6 hits per attacker, dependiing on squad size) or do they just take one hit each, and assume that they are sprayed by the closest FD?

and as the BRB says too "This represents the fact that each fighter is contributing his shots and blows to the swirling combat while warriors are rushing forward to replace their comrades that fall under the blows of the enemy"

So when the piranhas rush forward to replace their comrades the FD AI fires at the attackers.

A rules lawyer could argue "before resolving its attacks" in a case where: 3 guys assault, 2 die in piranha leader's FD blast. piranha wingman1 and piranha wingman2 are not being attacked... But then again, it is s swirling combat