So I have already seen this thread here... but I am really surprised by the interpretations presented there. Why? Because I don't see how the conclusions were made.

Here is the rule:

The consensus in the other thread was that the carnivore unit loses the special rule Infiltrate. Now, could someone please point out to me where in the rules it says the unit loses the ability and not where it says that they may not use the ability? There is definitely a significant distinction between having something that you are unable to use, and not having it to begin with, right?

In looking at 5th edition codex and others, all of them list USR in a similar fashion in their army lists.
Special Rules
<the ability>

In this particular instance, I think it's quite clear that Kroot have the USR Infiltrate. As a point of comparison Pathfinders + Scout have a similar reference to the BRB, and I think we all agree Pathfinders have the Scout USR. If Kroot don't have the USR Infiltrate, how are they able to Outflank, Infiltrate, etc.? Either they have the USR or we have been cheating since 5th came about.
So can we agree that Kroot have the Infiltrate USR?

If they have the USR... at what point do they "lose" the USR?
In reading the rules, it says "If the squad does not contain a Krootox Rider it may Infiltrate"... how is this different from the following

If the unit "loses" the USR, how are units with Infiltrate that embark a transport able to Outflank? Clearly not being able to Infiltrate does not mean you lose the USR. You are just not permitted to use it under specific circumstances.
For example, Kroot have the USR Infiltrate, however, if they include a Krootox, they may not Infiltrate.
Does not being allowed to Infiltrate mean that you have lost the USR? See where I'm going with this?



I've done a couple searches online, and I've seen a couple people support the "No Outflank w/ Krootox" but I can't see where in the rules as written it is supported. I am 100% certain that Krootox do not prevent a unit from Outflanking.

Krootox + Outflanking for everybody!

If this is true my "Krootstomp" outflank tactic just got more vicious!! Can we get some people talking about this? I want to know how much weight this argument holds

I think there was definitely some confusion when it was first presented.
Honestly, the idea of Outflanking them only just occurred to me this evening and I've been playing since 3rd Edition. (actually before, but competitively and consistently since 3rd)

Doing a quick search, I returned the results saying "No", but only one provided a rules quote. When I read the quote from the Tau Codex, it felt quite clear that folks had misinterpreted it.

For example, the following statement we know to be True. (in a programming/math sense)
"If the squad does not contain a Krootox Rider it may Infiltrate"
Another way to say this is, "If the squad contains a Krootox Rider it may not Infiltrate"

Would you agree that statement is also True?
I would.

Then when comparing that to p76 and p94, and knowing that units with Infiltrate may Outflank with dedicated transports (Scorpions, Storm Troopers for example) we know that not being permitted to Infiltrate is not the same thing as not having Infiltrate. We also know that not being allowed to Infiltrate does not mean that the unit can not Outflank. In fact, we know that units who may not Infiltrate, can Outflank.

As I said above, I'm 100% confident that Krootox can in fact Outflank. This definitely makes the unit significantly better in bringing S7 and S6 to bear against your opponents lines.

I agree with your read as written interpretation, in that it doesn't list an absence of Krootox as a requirement for obtaining Infiltrate, but rather simply has their version of Infiltrate (which is always present) being altered (but not removed) once Krootox have been added. My only quip is this; reading the rule, I can't help but feel that the limitation was intended to affect their ability to outflank as well. This is to say, that while a grouping of Kroot (and for the purpose of this comment, lets just assume anytime I speak of Kroot, they have accompanying Krootox) were to infiltrate it would have much less of an impact on the game than if it had out flanked, bringing to mind the question of why they included the rule at all? Was it simply to prevent you from installing Kroot in the forests of the enemy deployment zone? Given the range of the Kroot Gun, would it make that much difference to have them end up in your deployment instead? It seems the nature of the Krootox is that once it is in the squad of Kroot, their ability to Infiltrate becomes significantly more trivial. Contrasting this we have the extreme potential for mayhem that an Outflanking Kroot squad might have when given shots at side/rear armor, or other LoS denied targets - not to mention the shear weight of wounds, and significant increase to strength and quantity of attacks it adds to the carnivore squad. I guess I'm having trouble reconciling the seemingly trivial prevention of infiltration, versus the allowance super powered outflanking maneuver. I'm just thinking that by the time this was caught, or wether it was ever brought to the attention of GW staff at all, it was just too late for the errata. That being said, my view has something of a philosophical tinge to it, and while my experience in the hobby doesn't gift me with any precedence that might otherwise support contradict this sort of thing, taken purely as read as written, I can't find any fault with the argument.

I suggest not to look for loopholes with a bad written codex as ours. If you force your opponent to follow this level of RAW you'll regret it.

The current Tau codex is 4th edition correct? Isn't the ability to outflank from the infiltrate and scout abilities a 5th edition rule?

I think it nails it on the head that the infiltrate rule should follow the guidelines as current infiltrating rules have been defined. I play IG and can use the infiltrate and transports outflanking. (people ask about doing it with Sargeant Harker all of the time).

In the end I don't think having a Krootox outflanking will mean much to your opponents. Its good, but not great.

In 5th you can outflank if you can infiltrate or scout.
So outflanking comes from the ability to infiltrate or scout.
If you can't infiltrate or scout, you can't outflank unless you have a rule specifically allowing you to outflank.

Harker for IG has infiltrate. If you assign him a Chimera transport he can no longer infiltrate, but he and his squad still have the infiltrate USR - having the inherit USR ability for the squad allows him + squad + Chimera transport to Outflank.

The issue that is being discuss can be complicated due to word usage and as others have nailed on the head - "Poorly written codex". The basic theme is that you can't have a lumbering animal or transport sneaking up on an enemy with infiltrate. Nothing would stop it from running around a flank.

The infiltrate ability the Kroot have is a USR built in. The codex wrote it specifically stating that you cannot infiltrate, but never states they lose the ability to outflank - primarily because they didn't have that when the codex was written, (as far as I know..............was outflank a 5th edition add on and not in 4th?)

They even FAQ'd the IC being apart of a squad before it outflanks now, but they seemed to have not cared enough to look at this. In the end since the Harker issue was ruled on and understood, my local gameshop won't have an issue with me fielding a Krootox...............now of course I will need to buy one

I think that paidinfull has hit on something, actually. Is it (1) the ability to infiltrate that confers units their Outflank status (and the consequent ability to outflank)? Or is it (2) their status as Infiltrators that confers units their Outflank status?

If it is (1), then Krootoxen prevent outflanking. If it is (2), they don't. What do the rules say:

From what I can tell, that's all the salient rules between the two books, and they aren't totally clear. The quotation on p. 74 of the BRB only refers to the situation in which independent characters and regular units interact. The implication here seems to be that the addition of any models that do not have an asterisked rule to a unit that does have that asterisked rule results in the loss of that rule's effects. Because it specifically deals with independent characters, it is only implied. There is no indisputable way of resolving my question about whether being an infiltrator is a status, or whether it is an ability from the text presented. The unit with the rule is referred to as "infiltrators," which makes it sound like a status. However, it is also referred to explicitly as an "ability."

Unless someone were to come up with an argument I haven't imagined resolving the status/ability question, the implied loss of the rule's effects seem to take precedence. In the absence of a clear RAW conclusion, the hints available should be followed. The analogy between "unruly" independent characters joining a unit with an asterisked USR and an "unruly" upgrade being added to to a unit with an asterisked USR is the best indicator I can find.

Edit: Ninja'd by Da-Rock. The ability of units with Infiltrate to outflank with a dedicated transport is specifically provided for in the BRB on p. 94. The addition of non-transport models to the unit itself is not really analogous to the addition of a dedicated transport. Additionally, Harker's special rule is specifically "Catachan Devils" (Codex: IG p. 62), which confers Infiltrate not only to Harker, but to his entire squad. Therefore this does nothing to solve the question of whether Infiltrate is a status or an ability, because the entire unit does have the infiltrate special rule, and the only exception—their dedicated transport—is an explicit exception to the requirements of the rule. A unit of Kroot upgraded with Krootox Riders is a unit that may or may not have Infiltrate. Whether Kroot keep or loses the rule with the addition of Krootox Riders is what is at issue. If they lose the rule, then they aren't anything like Harker and his squad. If they keep the rule, then they sort of are like Harker and his squad. But before knowing which it is, mentioning Harker doesn't help much.

I hope all of that is clear.

I do agree that in the end it will depend on if the Tau codex is removing the infiltrate ability from the Kroot or just not allowing them to use it when a Krootox is present.

The same could be said for providing a transport to a unit with Infiltrate as it specifically states that they "can not" Infiltrate.
However, there was no such thing as Outflank when the codex was written. The intent is quite clearly to prevent a player from placing a S7 rapid fire weapon (so overpowered! ) 12-18" away from your opponent. The only thing that this rule states is that they have Infiltrate as a special rule, which is qualified that they "may use it" if not accompanied by Krootox.

Here's the rub. If the argument is that Kroot gain or lose the USR Infiltrate in this sentence, then by RAW they can not ever Infiltrate or Outflank. The reason being as it refers to a mission specific rule and not a USR in the RAW from the codex. The unit either gains the USR Infiltrate as it's written exactly in the entry as it is in other codex, that is:
Special Rule
<ability>
Or they are not allowed to ever Infiltrate or Outflank. It's a fairly cut and dry situation if going by RAW.

From a philosophical standpoint, it's difficult to guess what the intent of the author was. I think that from a "fluff" perspective the logic would be a large lumbering platform would make too much noise to be hiding near the enemy. Again, from a strictly philosophical standpoint, Outflank and Infiltrate are not the same thing. In one instance a unit has been sent around to the flank of the enemy forfeiting a turn in Reserves.

What a strange comment to make.
This is either the rule, or it's not. There's no "loophole".
From the codex the unit has the Special Rule: Infiltrators. No where is it written that they "lose" this USR.

Last night I was driving home reflecting on my Tau list and I thought about how a couple krootox on the flank would actually be incredibly useful. I then wondered why no one did it. I plugged "krootox + outflank" into google on my G2 and returned 3 hits, here, HeresyOnline, and Librarium Online (where our own @eiglepulper had made a post). The majority consensus was "No" it did not work, however, that consensus is quite clearly incorrect after the information I, and others, have shown here.

They have the USR Infiltrate and are not permitted to use it if a krootox is included. This is an identical situation to a unit in a transport, which we all know can Outflank.

This is correct.
If, however, you are using this to suggest that having the USR Infiltrate and not being allowed to use it, means that you can't Outflank you would be incorrect. It quite clearly says in the Infiltrate rules that if you have a transport that you "cannot Infiltrate". Yet, we know Infiltrate and Outflank are not the same rule. Therefor not being permitted to use Infiltrate does not necessarily prevent a unit from using Outflank. The Kroot can Infiltrate, but are not permitted to use Infiltrate (exactly as a unit w/ a transport) if accompanied by a Krootox. So they still have the rule, just are not permitted to use it.

Do you see the difference between having it and not being allowed to use it, and gaining and losing the ability?

I think what is being confused by those saying "No", is when you read "may not" or "can not" that suddenly the unit has lost that rule.
That is simply not the case, as they have not "lost" the rule. The only time a USR is lost is explicitly described in the BRB. Are the Krootox IC? No. Therefore they still have the USR Infiltrate.

I highly suggest reading the Outflank rule in it's entirety.


Okay so there you have it.
A unit with Infiltrate that takes a dedicated transport can not Infiltrate.
How then are they able to Outflank?

The reason is, even though they can not infiltrate they still have the special rule Infiltrate. Clearly as written in the codex Kroot have two special rules:
Fieldcraft
Infiltrate

Because they still have the special rule Infiltrate, who's use is qualified by a rule, they can outflank if they include a Krootox.



On last point that I think makes it crystal clear.
Kroot have the two following Special Rules as listed in their codex.
Fieldcraft
Infiltrate

The quote you've made is actually preceded by Infiltrate:.
Therefore the unit clearly has special rule Infiltrate, which is qualified in the codex and we are told to reference the BRB to see how it works.

The following sentence from the Outflank quote:
units with the 'Scout' or 'Infiltrate' special rules
Is the only qualifier to being permitted to Outflank.

Do Kroot Carnivore Squads have the infiltrate special rule?
The answer is Yes.
However, they may not Infiltrate if they take a krootox, but this does not prevent them from outflanking who's only prerequisite is that they have the special rule Infiltrate.

removed

With all due respect, I can appreciate the opinion here, I just disagree. Though this sort of echo's the spirit vs mechanics argument that is at the heart of this, if you go RaW, from what I know (and I could always be wrong) there's nothing that says having a USR, and having the ability to exercise that USR is the same. The fact of the matter is that the unit, if only by formatting of the Tau codex, has infiltrate regardless of whether or not a Krootox is present. Krootox are simply preventing the use of Infiltrate for it's primary purpose.

If indeed Outflanking was attached to Infiltrate after 4th ed, then that would explain why this never got an official ruling, why its only coming up now (/original article) it explains the spirit vs mechanics nature of this entire thing, and as far as I'm concerned would make it an exploitative tactic that is at best unsporting (not to be confused with legitimate milking of an aging codex). And as such, my argument in support of this would exist as strictly a RaW one. I'd love for someone with a 4th BrB to look this up though, as I'm looking at our stealth suits, and pathfinders, each a separate flavor of Outflank attached via a separate USR, which as a consequence are somewhat affected by this discussion as well.

You seem to be getting my point I am however, curious about the following.

To answer your question, Outflank did not exist until 5th.
Additionally, infiltrate was not a USR in 4th, it was a mission specific rule, like Deep Strike (which is commonly referred to as a USR but is actually not it's a mission specific rule).

Now in regards to your "exploitive" comment... you do realize we are discussing Krootox right?!
Krootox have never, ever really been a "good" unit. They were too expensive in the previous codex as well as used up a heavy slot, now they've lost what is essentially Relentless and their toughness increase(they were 3(5)). Lastly, they prevent you from Infiltrating (again this is not Outflanking ). This actually gives them a little bit more viability in 5th, as getting 1 or 2 S7 shots on side armor is actually worth something.
I'm a little confused about the "exploitive" comment as this would be merely and overlooked ability that comes from the interaction between Outflank and Infiltrate.

I'm actually glad you brought up Stealth Suits, because they have an identical interaction. How do Stealth Suits gain the mission rule Outflank?
That is because they have the special rule Infiltrate, as listed in the codex. If the argument is that Kroot gain and lose infiltrate, which they don't, and that they do not have the USR Infiltrate, which they do, then Stealth Suits would not be able to use the rule either.

What I mean when I say the use of this is exploitative, I'm not referring to us exploiting the unit specifically. What I mean is that we are exploiting an unintended interaction between our out of date codex, and the new rule set, and that is what is unsporting. Today an unintended interaction of old and new rules has yielded a RaW buff, but what about the example this could set? What if next time, the otherwise completely unintended interaction of new mechanics results in a net loss of capability to one of our units? I'm not arguing that rules lawyering isn't part of the game, as I've said before I'm in support of the RaW view on this. What I think, really, my final thoughts on the subject are, are this; GW isn't exactly known for policing it's work vigorously. While I support the RaW conclusion, and feel it's clear enough, I wouldn't challenge any official ruling (even from a local tournament, as often one must look to for these grey area scenarios) that would move against it, if only on the basis that I think it's in direct opposition to how the unit was intended to function. In the end, we're fortunate that this isn't a huge game changer, since it's inclusion or disallowance won't make any waves, and your opponent, or tournament organizer isn't likely to contest, or even be bothered by it.

I hear ya. I think the RAI argument is very, very difficult to achieve in this instance.
The more I discuss this the more concrete it becomes. It's remarkably simple.

The question is... does the Kroot Carnivore squad have the Infiltrate special rule? Yes, yes it does.

We know that this works because of how we play units with Infiltrate + Transport.

Following this logic, that Krootox can not Outflank, units with Infiltrate + Transport cannot Outflank, because... they have "lost" the Infiltrate special rule.
We know that's not true though.

I don't believe that this is an unintended interaction anymore than an infiltrating unit that takes a transport. I think that this is exactly the same thing and there by the intent. To sacrifice a turn in reserves rather than be deployed within 12"-18". It's no more unsporting than an Outflanking Redeemer with a 6x Assault Terminators in it. You know, it just is what it is.

Now, I am not encouraging you to start an argument, in fact, if it's a big deal, don't because it's not worth it. This is just a game after all. However, if a player is under the impression it works, which I am 100% confident that it does, being told the contrary could really mess up a list.

Thanks for the reply paidinfull. The only part I'm worried about is that what you're claiming with confidence doesn't seem to be self-evident to me. I think your position is quite defensible, but it isn't immediately clear to me that the rule isn't lost. Unless I'm an outlier, or being willfully blind then that's a problem. We're both looking at the same text, and it's telling us different things. Doesn't that mean that the text is unclear?

In the end it doesn't matter that much, I think. You're right to say that starting arguments isn't advisable, but there's no reason not to outflank Krootox Riders if the opponent agreed on the interpretation.