I forget where I heard about it - but someone mentioned something to me about fast moving transport vehicles and their occupants dying if the vehicle moved >12" and the vehicle sufferes a destroyed result.

Is this true? Some relevent rules are as follows:


I would see the arguement that it was in the previous movement phase that the vehicle moved. . .


However for destroyed - explodes no mention is made of "disembarking"

My interpretation is that the passengers would only ever be destroyed if the vehicle blew up during its own movement phase. From ramming or being immobilized (as a skimmer) for example. If the destroyed result occured during the opponents shooting phase, they occupants could still jump out. Any thoughts to the contrary?

no worries because our skimmers can't fly more than 12" (exept the piranha), so they don't move flat out. if you move 12" with devilfish or hammerhead, and it's destroyed in the enemy's turn, it just crashes and any occupants take a hit with saves allowed (look in the rulebook pg 67 under "effects of damage results on passengers"

in 4th edition, skimmers moving 12", and which were immobilised, also crashed and were destroyed. in 5th edition this is also changed to skimmers which moved flat out (18-24").

I wasn't refering to devilfish, but eldar transports and ork trukks.

The disembarkation is disallowed by the vehicle's previous movement only in the friendly player turn. Disembarkation which is caused by incoming enemy fire is done in the Enemy turn and is not therefore subject to the distance the vehicle moved in its own turn.

Vehicle distance moved in the previous turn has relevance only for the enemy Assault Phase in order to determine what D6 roll is needed to be able to strike the vehicle in combat.

The Vehicle Damage Chart result "Destroyed - Explodes!" has its own rules; the passengers suffer wounds, saving throws are made and then survivors are placed, etc. There is no mention of disembarkation since it is not a disembarkation move - it is a "cause and effect" situation with its own rules - so none of the Disembarking rules applies. However, an addendum to that one would be the line on P.66 BRB under Embarking and Disembarking where it says
There is no qualification as to which 'Destroyed' result that sentence is referring. It implies that both results equate to a disembarkation move, but the expanded rules on P.67 BRB clarify this for us.

The only times I can think of where passengers are actually 'destroyed' are:
"Destroyed - wrecked!" result: the entire transport model is completely and utterly surrounded, thus preventing an Emergency Disembarkation (P.67 BRB lines 6-end of paragraph 1 of "Disembarking").
"Destroyed - Explodes!" result: every single passenger was wounded and subsequently failed its armour save.

E.

Well, there is a Apocalypse formation that allows its devilfish to move as fast vehicles, so this ruling would apply, although I agree with eiglepulper so it does not apply to anyone. Also, for slight clarification 4th edition rulings had skimmers crash and destroyed if moving over 6". Granted moving 12 is over 6, I felt compelled to make the distinction.

I have another question that is somewhat in line with this one. I'm thinking about making a DE army next & I was wondering can passengers fire out of an open topped vehicle if it moves at cruising speed if it is a fast vehicle? I know our gun drones on a dfish can fire if any weapon can fire due to the GW FAQ, but is this possible for any other army?

P.66 BRB third paragraph under "Fire Points".

The Gun Drones have a special rule allowing them to fire "in addition" to any weapon normally permitted, etc, so they aren't in quite the same situation.

E.

We came across this ruling when concerning our gun drones as they are considered passengers. Basically, if one of the vehicles weapons can fire, then all passengers can fire. Otherwise none can fire.

I have a DE army and according to the rules I have found = Passengers CAN fire out of open topped vehicles as loong as it moves 12" or less, but they count as moving (so the splinter rifles have a range of 12" Rapid Firing and the Splinter cannon gets its 4 assualt 24" shots). It is a decent tactic....

This is an old thread, but I had a situation come up that fits perfectly with the question and was doing some research on it. Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with E on this, but apparently the Adepticon organizers feel differently. On page 15 of the 2010 FAQ for Adepticon Tournaments, at the very bottom, it states that fast transport vehicles that are "destroyed" after moving flat out (ie, over 12") kill their passengers (if any).

Link to Adepticon FAQ

Now, to be fair, Adepticon isn't run by GW, so at a GW tourney, the TO might rule otherwise. However, this is definitely something to bring up in any sort of Q&A session before or after the tourney.

This has had me running over the rules big time! The Adepticon FAQ just refers to the damage result concerned as "Destroyed", rather than going by the two types of destruction: 'Wrecked' and 'Explodes'. If we look at the rules for moving flat out (P.70 BRB) and the effects of damage results on passengers (P.67 BRB):

1. Troops cannot disembark from a vehicle which has moved/intends to move flat out that turn. P.70
2. Destroyed-Wrecked result says that passengers must disembark, but those who cannot disembark are destroyed. P.67
3. Destroyed-Explodes result does not actually say that the passengers must disembark. However, in the subsequent paragraph it says that the unit which destroyed the vehicle (either result) may assault the now disembarked passengers, so there is a disembarkation implied rather than stated openly concerning the "Destroyed-Explodes" result.

So I can see where Adepticon is coming from. To make a difference in gameplay between the "wrecked" and the "explodes" results, the rulebook specifies what happens for each one separately. Both "Destroyed" results however end up with the passengers disembarking. Adding in the "no disembarkation allowed if moving flat out" rule from P.70 BRB to this would suggest to me that Adepticon is right about the passengers being killed with no saves allowed.

E.

And I just realized I should've gone through the rules and found it myself rather than making you go through and spend time you could've used painting.

I can see where both sides are coming from, but personally, I'm inclined towards the Adepticon answer.

I can see the logic behind the argument, but I don't think that this is the case because if we look at 4th edition, the rules were very specific, (and harsh) for units in transports which moved flat out. IMHO GW would have spelled out that the contained units die like they did in 4th. Also, the rules for transports in 5th have overall, made units in transports more survivable rather than less survivable. On top of that, it makes armies such as Dark Eldar unplayable since a lucky bolter shot can kill 10 DE in their transport. I mean, if you lose the entire unit from a fast-transport if they are destroyed, then fast transports are practically useless since they rely on their speed rather than armor to keep them alive.

Normally I agree with Adepticon, but IMHO, they are simply using rules lawyering to come to their conclusion rather than RAI.

Actually, I believe they are closer to being RAI than rules lawyering.

If you checked E's post do note the first rule that he noted. If you omitted that rule, that's going to be much more overpowering for assault armies with fast vehicles as they have no reason now to actually NOT flat out as this will still be normally be able to get their assault troops in your face than before.

I'm not sure if you've all misread this as it wasn't clear in any of the recent posts, but the passengers are only destroyed if the vehicle is destroyed during the movement phase in which it moved flat out, not subsequent phases or turns (The INAT FAQ even bolds SAME movement phase).

You can still move flat out and not lose the contents of the transport when shot at on the opponent's turn.

I don't see how having fast transports is overpowering. Usually their speed is balanced by their lack of armor & large transport capability. The only two I can think of that aren't hindered by this are Valkyries & Wave Serpents. On top of that, the troops inside often die quite quickly to shooting. If fast transports kill everyone inside when they wreck they are practically useless since:
1. They must move Flat out in order to improve their survivability through a cover save. Since most are AV10, a simple bolter can easily stop them.
2. The relatively small quantity/toughness of their passengers means they MUST make it across the board as fast as possible. Just one turn of fire can easily decimate the passengers. For example take DE warriors. One turn of rapid firing from Firewarriors will kill 10 warriors on average. That is the entire capacity of a DE raider.

If you take speed away from fast transports, then they are worthless, which I don't think was GW's idea after they saw what 4th ed rules did to fast transports.



This is true, but I only think that this is to prevent those fast transports from being able to assault on turn 1. I think that GW's lack of specificity about this allows some people to apply this to the rest of the turn.

If something as drastic as picking up an entire unit was caused by their transport wrecking, it would have been spelled out.

Edit: Also here is a direct quote from the FAQ. If you read it it clearly states a situation in which passengers would be killed. However it does not apply to what was being said earlier.

Quote:

+RB.70H.01 – Q: If a transport vehicle is "Destroyed‟ in the same movement phase it is declared to be moving "flat out‟ (when ramming another vehicle, for example) are the models onboard destroyed?
A: Yes, when a vehicle is destroyed in the same movement phase it moves "flat-out‟, passengers onboard are unable to disembark and therefore count as destroyed [clarification].

Theambit: Yep, sorry - had missed the emboldened bit.

So basically then does that reduce the methods of fast transport vehicles and their passenger cargo being destroyed in the movement phase to "Ramming another vehicle and coming off worst" (but why the heck would you ram something with a fully-laden paper bag anyway? ) or else as a result of a successful Death or Glory attack which destroys the vehicle?

Something is niggling away in the back of my mind about some shooting attack which can interrupt the enemy movement phase, similar to Overwatch, but I just can't think what it is. Unless it's Overwatch.....

Anyway: in other words, the Destroyed results of shooting attacks in the shooting phase, or successful close combat attacks, don't enter into the equation?

E.

eiglepulper: Yes, basically you'll only ever need this rule if you've rammed another vehicle with a fast-tank-transport and blown up.

Or move flat out into area terrain with a skimmer then roll a 1 for dangerous terrain. Immobilized=Wrecked

Move flat out over a mine field and roll a 1.
Move flat out in a tank shock but the death or glory immobilizes or wrecks the transport. Heh heh! Beat you on that one! ~ Eigle