Contention: While a Twin-linked weapon can be fired without a Multi-tracker, RAW disallows the firing of a Twin-linked weapon and another weapon even with a Multi-tracker.

Premises:

1. Buying 2 hardpoints of the same weapon counts as a single twin-linked weapon.

"When a weapon is given two point values... the second [value] is for two weapons (counting as a twin-linked weapon of that type). (pg 25, TE codex)"

2. 1 hardpoint of a weapon counts as 1 Battlesuit Weapon System.

"A single-mounted weapon counts as a single Battlesuit Weapon System. (pg 25, TE codex)"

3. 2 hardpoints of the same weapon count as 2 Battlesuit Weapon System.

"A twin-linked weapon counts as two [Battlesuit Weapon Systems]. (pg 25, TE codex)"

4. A Multi-tracker does not explicitly allow two weapons to fire, but merely two Battlesuit Weapon Systems.

"[A Multitracker] enables the modell to fire two battlesuit weapon systems in the same turn. (pg 26, TE codex)"

5. A model can fire a single weapon, unless otherwise stated.

A quick glance doesn't reveal where it explicitly says this, though I'm sure its true and is implied by the rules found in the Monstrous Creature type section, where it say that instead of only being able to fire 1 weapon, they can fire 2...

Edit: "Normally each model in a firing unit can fire a single weapon. Some Models... may be able to fire more than one weapon. (pg 15, BRB)"

Argument:

6. If something counts as a single weapon, it can be fired normally, according to (5). A twin-linked weapon counts as a single weapon, according to (1). Therefore, a twin-linked weapon can fire without the need of a Multi-tracker.

7. To fire two weapons, you need an exception that allows you to fire two weapons. Thus, if a Multi-tracker allows you to fire two weapons, you can fire two weapon.

8. If a Multi-tracker only allows for a maximum of 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems to fire and the combination of a twin-linked weapon and a single weapon counts as 3 Battlesuit Weapon Systems, then a Multi-tracker would not allow you to fire a twin-linked weapon and a single weapon together.

9. A Multi-tracker only allows for a maximum of 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems to fire according to (4). A twin-linked weapon counts as 2 Battlesuit Weapon Systems and a single weapon counts as a single Battlesuit Weapon System according to (3) and (2) respectively, and thus equal 3 Battlesuit Weapon Systems.

Therefore

10. You cannot fire a twin-linked weapon and a single weapon together, even with a Multi-tracker.





Again, just so we're explicitly clear - for the purposes of shooting, any model can shoot a single weapon of their choice, making no mention of Battlesuit Weapon Systems. This is why a twin-linked weapon can shoot even without a Multi-tracker - counting as a single weapon, it can be fired as such. This similarly applies to Broadsides - even though their Railgun is twin-linked, it is still treated as a single weapon of that type, and thus can be fired without a Multi-tracker.

A Multi-tracker doesn't deal with "weapons" though, but rather a distinct entity known as a Battlesuit Weapon System, where a twin-linked weapon system isn't counted as one, but rather as two.

If you want to argue I'm wrong, here are a few guidelines:

1. Do not appeal to writer intent.

This should be pretty self-explanatory... the writer's intent is not known to anyone except the writer.

2. Show explicit contradictions.

To show one of my points is actually wrong, provide a contradiction in the text, either in the BRB or the TE Codex.

3. Find a FAQ entry that explicitly allows a twin-linked weapon to fire with a single weapon when using a Multi-tracker.

Whatever else they may say, a FAQ is as good as an errata - if an official GW FAQ says it works, it works, regardless of what the actual text logically states.


Thanks in advance - I figure it would be good to get the RAW as clear as possible before deciding on if a House Rule is needed.

Just as a helping hand, pg 15 BRB is where mention is made of one weapon per model.

Thanks, I'll edit that in...

The basic premise of this issue is that the wording of the Multi-Tracker entry in the Tau Codex states that It enables the model to fire two battlesuit weapon systems in the same turn. The entry for Twin-Linked Battlesuit Weapons Systems states that a twin-linked weapon system counts as two (battlesuit weapon systems)

As the Multi-Tracker only allows a Battlesuit to fire two weapons, a third weapon could not be used with a TL weapon system.

From what I can see, RAW says that this is correct. I personally do not believe this is the way it was intended. I will continue to use TL weapon + normal weapon suits and hope that the rules are clarified in the next codex.

@ OP: My my my, is this a challange of rules? To see if a point is right or wrong by RAW? Hmmm. well I can't just sit here and let the way I've been doin it be shot down, (or at least not counted as RAW). I'll be back later to try and argue a counter point. Until then I must say very good argument. This will be hard to counter. (I like a challange so I'm rather glad you made this discovery of RAW. I might need to call in back up though.)

Time to get busy. And hope I can find something good because this is really interesting. (And ruins a suit I will be making in the future so this will be pivotal, either way I'll learn somethin from this)

I understand your argument completely; by RAW, you are not able to fire a twin-linked weapon and a normal weapon together, since both of those weapons would count as 3 Battlesuit weapon systems. However, I believe your #6 point is shaky, and my counter to it is that you can't have it both ways. RAW clearly states that that the Multi-Tracker allows the Battlesuit to only fire 2 Battlesuit weapons systems, but I don't believe you can count a Twin-Linked weapon as one weapon for firing and two weapon systems for a Multi-Tracker. It's either one or the other.

My counterpoint: Why does a Firewarrior Team Leader or Shas'ui have access to a Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker? The only other weapon he is allowed to take is a Marker Light. I believe this to mean that a MT allows the "model" [Codex MT RAW quote] to fire two weapons. The fact that it says "Battlesuit Weapons Systems" is an oversight. I suggest this as a counterpoint because if we are to play by RAW, taking MT's on anything but Crisis Suits is useless.

If we were to only play by RAW:
1) A Battlesuit would need a MT to fire a twin-linked weapon
2) Taking MT's on anything other than a Battlesuit would be useless, since Broadsides and Firewarriors with access to the infantry armory can not take any "Battlesuit Weapon Systems" anyways

Let's be careful here. No one's going to argue on only your terms, that's no fun. It's just not fair if one has to bring a Bonding Knife to a Plasma Rifle fight...

No insult intended, nor have I an ironfist to enforce them. They're guidelines, not rules. O|If someone wants to bring up an intention argument, that's fine - it isn't going to refute RAW, which is all my argument is trying to establish.

I, too, will try to continue using MTs to fire TL weapons and single weapons as if it worked... but only after consulting my group. Its best to be up front about these things, i feel.

I still feel (6) is on strong grounds.

The restriction on number of weapons you can fire, found in the BRB, refers to weapons. A TL weapon counts as a single weapon (as per both BRB and TE Codex), and thus is able to fire. There is no restiction, in either BRB or TE Codex, on firing 2 BWSs that I can see, so long as it follows the BRB rules for firing weapons.

That, of course, doesn't allow a suit with 2 different BWSs to fire together so long as they are two different weapons, as that violates the restriction on firing more than 1 weapon.

The Multi-tracker still works in this case because it explicitly allows you to fire 2 BWSs without restriction, which overrides the general rule of "only 1 weapon can fire".

Thus, I feel that the RAW restriction on TL weapons and a single weapon both firing forces neither a TL weapon crisis suit to have a Multi-tracker to fire, nor does it restrict a crisis suit with 2 different weapons from firing both if they have a Multi-tracker.

It seems to be the least contradictory interpretation of the rules.




By the way, this IS a sort of challenge. I personally don't think they intended the rules to work this way, but again, that's not what I'm arguing for - I'm trying to establish the RAW for this case, so as to make House Rules as necessary to apply RAI as I (and many, many others) believe them to be.

Ah, I think it's important that you used the word "contradictory." Games Workshop has always said that "Codex trumps Rulebook," so when making arguments for establishing RAW, it'd difficult to use the BRB RAW to contradict the Codex, since Codex RAW is more holy. That's why I say you can't have it either way, because I believe (could be mistaken) your argument uses BRB RAW to over rule Codex RAW in determining the difference between one weapon and one Battlesuit Support System.

What about my MT's on FW Team Leaders? Are they to become useless?

Ah but see, when refering to twin-linking weapons the codex pulls out a little phrase that the BRB used. For the purpose of firing, the twin-linked weapon counts as one weapon. Thus it appears that the very rule its self seems to fighting itself. For while they are two battlesuit weapon systems, they count as one for the purpose of shooting. (page 25, Tau dex)

I see where your coming. My local club has a few "house rules" that I haven't bothered arguing for or against, (haven't played a real tourney there yet) so I will wait until someone tries it on me in that kind of situation before I do anything. Arguing RAW doesn't bother me till the Tourney situation.

I don't think I'm using BRB rules to trump Codex rules at all.

The BRB rule I'm using is that you can only fire 1 weapon from each model, unless something else explicitly allows it.

The Multi-tracker is just that something else we have, and it allows you to fire 2 BWSs each turn.

A TL weapon, according to both BRB and TE Codex, counts as a single weapon. This means that, unless something specifically disallows it to fire, it has no restriction on firing even if it counts as 2 BWSs, since it is always a single weapon. It also, for Codex-specific usage, counts as 2 BWSs, without any sort of "for the purposes of X1, X2, X3,... Xn only".

Remember, the codex-specific term Battlesuit Weapon System is non synonymous with the BRB term "weapon", since the TL weapon entry states that it is both a single weapon AND counts as 2 BWSs.



Basically, for the rules to restrict a TL weapon from being able to fire without a MT, the TE Codex would have to explicitly say that one Battlesuit Weapon System is one weapon. As it does not, there is no restriction on the number of BWSs that can be fired as long as the number of weapons fired conforms to the BRB's "1 weapon unless there's a special rule".

Yes, I already realize this. Painfully so.

Yes, I understand you argument. The BRB allows you one weapon to shoot. The TE codex states that a Twin-Linked weapon is considered one weapon. Naturally, you automatically get your one weapon to shoot.

So, I think it's now important that we look at why FW's are given access to a HWMT. By RAW, they can't even use it right? Need to take a Battlesuit Weapon System, as per the Multi-Tracker entry. So what's the point? Well, it's obviously given as a choice to shoot their Rifle and a Markerlight. Okay, those are two single weapons, correct? Are not a twin-linked weapon and a regular weapon two single weapons for the purpose of shooting (according to the BRB and TE codex)?

This is a way (as I see it) to get around the flawed RAW MT entry, because these are two FW weapons that don't count as Battlesuit Systems, yet still get to use a MT.

I think the TE codex's wording is the real problem, because the MT's entry contradicts its choice in the infantry armory. That is why I choose to use it in the way that allows two weapons to fire, one being Twin-Linked, because they are single weapons. I believe it to be the authors intent. If anyone yells RAW at you, ask them why a FW can take a MT.

You do realize there's been a huge argument in the Rules of Engagement subforum about that very topic, don't you?

Let's keep those separate, unless there's some rules text in there that might ruin my argument and make everyone happier!

I do realize, but I believe it to be important to my argument. You're asking for a RAW interpretation, and this is mine. It may be an argument on contradictions that contradicts your argument, but an valid argument none the less.

I don't think there is a way to concretely establish RAW here, as per the contradictions the TE codex presents. What you have brought before us is something that needs to be FAQ'ed. Until then, I believe you will have to house rule it. Everyone I have played against has allowed both to be fired together. Has anyone told you differently?

I'm confused, though - where is the contradiction you're mentioning? At best, its a contradiction between what was clearly intended (the firing of Pulse Rifles/Carbines and Markerlights with a HW Multi-tracker) and what is allowed by RAW (one or the other - I'm not sure, though, as I haven't totally understood everything going on in that thread).

Ah ha! So we are in agreement about what is intended (firing of a rifle and makerlight) with a HWMT. The first contradiction is that the MT states only Battlesuit Weapon Systems are affected. However, this RAW interpretation would render that piece of Infantry wargear useless, since a FW cannot take any BWS (Battlesuit Weapon Systems). Contradiction #1.

So, if we were to take a completely RAW approach, a Battlesuit would need the MT to fire a Twin-Linked weapon, because it is counted as two BWS's. Regardless of whether the BRB states that a unit is allowed to fire one weapon a turn, you can't ignore the Tau codex wording of the BWS's. Codex > BRB in that respect. Contradiction #2.

That is why I state there is no way to give a good RAW ruling, because the wording for a MT is not how it should be. It states only Battlesuits can use them, but they are listed for infantry also. I feel like I have stated all I can on this subject. I am quite enjoying this discussion, but I am becoming a broken record, and that is not enjoyable for anyone. If you would like to continue discussing, PM me! Otherwise, someone else can chime in.

There's nothing saying a suit CAN'T fire two systems in one turn in the tau codex. . . there's no contradiction here. You can only fire a single weapon due to the BRB which is why the TL weapon can fire. You're seeing a contradiction where there isn't one.

I agree, my main point being the Multi-Tracker entry is unclear. I was simply providing an extreme, over-the-top RAW interpretation, as the wording makes it sound like you need a MT to fire a Twin-Linked weapon. I don't actually think you do, however. Neither do most people, thankfully.

You're basing your interpretation that MT is unclear because it doesn't work the way you want it to according to RAW with regards to FWs. This other issue shouldn't and doesn't have bearing on how it works with battlesuit systems.

From what I can see Unusualsuspect's RAW interpretation doesn't leave any holes aside from people not liking the outcome.

Well, I just don't think you should be able to say "It's RAI for the purposes of Firewarriors, but RAW for Battlesuits." You either do it RAW, making a HWMT on a Firewarrior useless, or RAI, and allow for FW's weapons and firing a Twin-Linked weapon with another, single one. That's why I use both examples in the same argument, and why I originally stated to Suspect that you can't have it both ways.

Although I admit I may be blinded by my own ambitions, I don't believe GW meant to render a FW's choice of HWMT's to be useless. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs, and everyone is reading my posts and shaking their heads. I apologize if that's the case!

I do like my twin-linked flamers firing with burst cannons, however, so I will defend the right to do so!

There are different issues involved with the RAW viability of FW Shas'ui with MT and the way TL weapons work with MT.

RAW, either Shas'ui w/MT works or it doesn't. Same for TL weapon and single weapon with MT on crisis suits.

That it was intended to be otherwise could be true, but that doesn't change what the rules literally say concerning either.

The RAW is clear, but the result is counter to probable RAI (again, probable - we don't know writer's intent on the HW MT, as it could have been acciental copy-paste just as much as it could have been meant to allow a FW to do what it does not seem to allow it to do).

What you seem to be making is a RAI argument, and that's perfectly fine - I happen to agree with you that the rules probably were intended to allow a TL weapon with single weapon to both shoot on a crisis with a MT, and that a FW with HWMT was probably intended to be able to shoot his PC and his ML.

What I disagree with you on is that the RAI makes any difference to the RAW argument that, according to the rules, my contention is correct. When it comes down to it, unless there's ambiguous wording (and the wording doesn't seem ambiguous to me but merely unfortunate), what was intended doesn't affect the rules that are actually written.