Volley Fire, Models and Units

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Xanrag
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Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#1 » Jun 21 2017 03:15

We're having a bit of an argument in my local group about the wording of the Volley Fire rule from Fireblades.

The wording is "Models in <SEPT> units within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades [...]"

Is this to be interpreted as that only models within 6" get the bonus or do models in units that are within 6" get the bonus?

I.e. is it:
  • [Models in <SEPT units] within 6" ...
  • Models in [<SEPT> units within 6"] ...

I could see it going either way and if we've learned anything from 8th edition it is that GW can't be consistent when writing rules..

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Arka0415
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#2 » Jun 21 2017 04:27

Xanrag wrote:Is this to be interpreted as that only models within 6" get the bonus or do models in units that are within 6" get the bonus?


In terms of English, this is an ambiguous sentence. It's not fully clear if the phrase "models" is the subject of the clause or if "units" is the subject.

However, the presence of the word "units" means that it's referring to units. If the Fireblade only buffed models within his aura, the wording would read "Models with the <SEPT> keyword within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades [...]" But that is not the official wording.

If the wording was "Units with the <SEPT> keyword within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades [...]" then it would be perfectly clear. However, units do not have ranged attacks. Models do. So they needed to add the word 'models' in there for clarity... which just muddled things up further.

Anyway, the Fireblade buffs whole units.

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boomwolf
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#3 » Jun 21 2017 04:49

Judging by the way ethreals and drakstrider are worded, I'd reckon its only models within 6", not their units.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#4 » Jun 21 2017 05:07

boomwolf wrote:Judging by the way ethreals and drakstrider are worded, I'd reckon its only models within 6", not their units.


If you have been applying the same logic to ethereals and darkstrider, then not only are you playing it wrong, but your also selling yourself short of the only buffs we get.

Unlike maths, you cant add brackets into the English language. So its as its written.

Models in <SEPT> units within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblades [...]"

remove the keyword <SEPT> as thats only there to see if the model qualifies based on race.
Models in units within 6" of any friendly Cadre Fireblades [...]"

only the unit has to be within 6" of the fireblade, if this wasn't the case, then the word 'unit' is completely irrelevant. And it only has to be a single model, otherwise they would have included the word 'wholly within"

Models within 6" of .... only the model can qualify
Models in units within 6" of .... its the unit that qualifies.

It's a pretty open and shut case really.

Its both rules as written AND rules as intended. GW have stated that the rules are written to speed the game up as much as possible. Calculating how many models in the unit are within 6" every turn slows down the game. The same reason templates were removed.

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Panzer
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#5 » Jun 21 2017 05:57

I'd argue it's all models in that unit because it's worded the same way as other aura effects who affect the whole unit.

Koetjeboe
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#6 » Jun 21 2017 05:58

Lechai Skull wrote:if this wasn't the case, then the word 'unit' is completely irrelevant.


No it wouldnt, as individual models don't have keywords, only units do, so the qualifier 'in <sept> units' is required to exclude things like kroot and vespid. If you look at the rules for Mont'ka that just refers to 'friendly <sept> units within 6"', so if volley fire was meant to be for whole units, it would have had the exact same wording.

The 'wholly within' is completely unrelated, unless they wanted to have it work only on whole units, not conga lines, not on part of a unit (i.e. individual models) and not on models that are 0.1" in range of 6".

I wish it was different as this makes volley fire a lot less potent, but the way I read it you only get it for models in 6" of the fireblade.

[edit]Damn looking at it again, the qualifier 'models in' might be required because they reference adding an extra attack for a specific list of weapons, and units don't have weapon, models do. I guess you are free to choose which interpretation you want to use because there is no clear definition (based on the language). Guessing at the intent I would agree the power works on the whole unit but a final verdict would have to come in an official FAQ[/edit]

Xanrag
Shas'La
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#7 » Jun 21 2017 06:07

We've continued to discuss this but can't really get any further than that the sentence is ambigious.

We have rules which state:
  • Models within x"
  • Units within x"
  • Models in units within x"

Just using the English language the third one can't definitively be said to be either of the first two.

If we look at context like "only models can shoot" then there are lots of rules that give units "reroll on hit rolls".
And if we say only models can have weapons then you could argue that you could easily write a rule affecting models in a unit with specific weapons.

Xanrag
Shas'La
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#8 » Jun 21 2017 06:09

Koetjeboe wrote:[...] if volley fire was meant to be for whole units, it would have had the exact same wording.


The same could be said for the other direction. If it was meant to be for only models, then it would have the exact same wording as the other tons of rules affecting just models.

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Panzer
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#9 » Jun 21 2017 06:13

Well since RAW doesn't get us anywhere let us think about RAI.
Fluff-wise the aura means the Fireblade gives exact commands to the unit so they shoot more accurate/better/whatever. He doesn't just give that command the the next 3 guys or such.
So that points towards it counting for the whole unit as well.

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Atzilla
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#10 » Jun 21 2017 06:16

Lechai Skull wrote:
boomwolf wrote:Judging by the way ethreals and drakstrider are worded, I'd reckon its only models within 6", not their units.


If you have been applying the same logic to ethereals and darkstrider, then not only are you playing it wrong, but your also selling yourself short of the only buffs we get.



boomwolf is onto something here.

Ethereal/Darkstrider says:
"units within 6"..."

Fireblade says:
"models in [...] units within 6"..."

If this differentiation in wording has any purpose, it indeed would mean only models in 6" get the bonus from the Fireblade. On the other all models in a unit which has at least one model in 6" to an etheral/darkstrider get his bonus.

This is good to know, since I played it wrong in my first 8e game.

Contrast with orks CFF:
"units that are entirely within 9"..."
which forces ork players to make a small bubble, because if one model is out of 9", no one gets the bonus.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#11 » Jun 21 2017 06:40

Every battle i have ever played, and every battle report i have watched so far (which is quite a few) play the rule as its intended. As long as a model is within 6" the unit gets the buff.

If 95% of the community read it as such, then i would guess your opponent is just having a winge about being shot a few extra times.

Yes 95% of the community 'could' be wrong, but the fact that is wasn't included in the FAQ seems to me to indicate that they had it right. (or at least that there were more ambiguous issues to fix)

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Lechai Skull
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#12 » Jun 21 2017 07:00

Atzilla wrote:
boomwolf is onto something here.

Ethereal/Darkstrider says:
"units within 6"..."

Fireblade says:
"models in [...] units within 6"..."



The difference here is that the ethereal affects the whole army, whereas the fireblade just affects models in <SEPT> units. IE not kroot or vespids. Thats why they are written differently. Both abilities apply to the whole unit.

Koetjeboe
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#13 » Jun 21 2017 07:09

Atzilla wrote:If this differentiation in wording has any purpose
The purpose of the different wording is to ensure volley fire only works on models in <sept> units (so no kroot/vespids, I think the shaper can still get a pulse rifle) and models with a pulse pistol/carbine/rifle (so no breachers). This explains the difference in wording with other 'per model' basis rules. The darkstriker rule (and other area buffs) don't have these specific limitations, so therefor got worded differently.

On the comparison with CFF, there they obviously didnt want to give the buff to conga lines (orc conga lines can be loooong), so they have a provision and precedent for writing rules to exclude that case if they want to, which they obviously didnt apply to volley fire. The only question remaining is whether the whole unit gets it, or only models in 6", which as stated before is ambiguous.

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Panzer
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#14 » Jun 21 2017 07:14

Koetjeboe wrote:
Atzilla wrote:If this differentiation in wording has any purpose
The purpose of the different wording is to ensure volley fire only works on models in <sept> units (so no kroot/vespids, I think the shaper can still get a pulse rifle) and models with a pulse pistol/carbine/rifle (so no breachers). This explains the difference in wording with other 'per model' basis rules. The darkstriker rule (and other area buffs) don't have these specific limitations, so therefor got worded differently.

Then they could have just written <SEPT> models instead of models in <SEPT> units and it would be much more clear.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#15 » Jun 21 2017 07:17

It's the entire unit, like 7th's Ethereal aura.

"Models in <SEPT> units within 6""
It's asking for the UNITS within 6", not the models. So, the entire units get the benefit

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Arka0415
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#16 » Jun 21 2017 08:13

Vector Strike wrote:It's asking for the UNITS within 6", not the models. So, the entire units get the benefit


This just has to be the way it works. Sure the sentence is ambiguous, and we'll need an FAQ to have any real answers. There seems to be a lot of extra grammar in that sentence were it to be about the models, not the units. Definitely something we should discuss further, but I don't know where we can get the evidence from besides an FAQ.

Koetjeboe
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#17 » Jun 21 2017 08:22

Panzer wrote:Then they could have just written <SEPT> models instead of models in <SEPT> units and it would be much more clear.

Looked it up in the rule book, looks like keywords can also be used when referencing models (i.e. keywords apply as long as the model has the keyword on its datasheet), which would make the <sept> unit specification unnecessary if they only meant actual models, instead of the whole unit. At the same time, that would also make mentioning models in the rule redundant (if they meant whole unit) so this doesnt help anything :-?. I'm just going to play it as working on the whole unit until a faq tells me otherwise.

[edit] The only thing I can think of is they meant units, but they needed to qualify that you can only get an extra attack with the infantry pulse weapons, hence they added the model part because its models that would have those weapons. Writing '<SEPT> units ... can make an extra attack using pulse weapons' opens up another bag of ambiguity, how many extra attacks would you get in that case (its not the unit making attacks, its the models as each model needs los and can pick a different target etc)? How its written now its clear that you get one attack for each model in the unit that has a pulse weapon.[/edit]

pilky
Shas'La
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Re: Volley Fire, Models and Units

Post#18 » Jun 21 2017 08:59

Koetjeboe wrote:[edit] The only thing I can think of is they meant units, but they needed to qualify that you can only get an extra attack with the infantry pulse weapons, hence they added the model part because its models that would have those weapons. Writing '<SEPT> units ... can make an extra attack using pulse weapons' opens up another bag of ambiguity, how many extra attacks would you get in that case (its not the unit making attacks, its the models as each model needs los and can pick a different target etc)? How its written now its clear that you get one attack for each model in the unit that has a pulse weapon.[/edit]


I think this is the clearest explanation. If you look at Ethereals or at Darkstrider you'll notice their powers apply to a whole unit (morale, re-rolls, wounds, advancing, toughness), whereas the Fireblade's works on models. The way I'd read it is

Models (the level of entity on which this rule applies)
in <SEPT> units (first clause narrowing down which models it applies)
within 6" of any friendly <SEPT> Cadre Fireblade (second clause further narrowing down the first clause)

If it was only models then you'd do "<SEPT> models within 6" "

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