Let's Contact GW!

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
Tanniith
Shas
Posts: 21

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#73 » Jul 12 2017 11:52

Other than what's already been mentioned I think a few of the important things would be:

The cost of some Tau crisis weapons doesn't make a lot of sense. There's currently no compelling reason to take the burst cannon or plasma rifle when the Ion Blaster is available for a mere 7 points more and is more efficient against 99% of targets.

The range of Tau crisis weapons. Previously with JSJ we were able to get into range, unload and the boost away to relative safety, mitigating the short range of our weapons. These days the standard 18" range of our crisis weapons means that if we fail to kill an assault unit (very possible due to our mediocre BS) we're very likely to get assaulted and wiped out. Crisis have always been a high risk/high reward unit but even a 6" range buff to crisis weapons would be insanely helpful.

Commanders Mont'ka and Kau'yon abilities are once per game and have penalties to use them. Meanwhile every other faction's hq gives a static buff for the entire game, with no penalties.

The Riptides point costs are atrocious and the fact that it has to hurt itself to be relatively useful is a joke. The mortal wound mechanic needs to be removed from it and the points need to go down by a lot for it to be even remotely competitive.

To add on to the markerlight problem -- you may want to highlight how easy it is for other armies to replicate the best uses of our markerlight table more reliably. On top of it, the markerlight table merely brings our army up to the standards of other, unbuffed shooting armies. Here are examples:

Necrons my will be done/triarch stalker buffs a unit to 2+ rerollable and is cheap, can be done every turn reliably.

All space Marine chapter masters give the 1st markerlight buff as a static buff for free, and guilliman gives a better version of Kau'yon + reroll to wound.

AM spotlights give the 5th markerlight buff for free.

Genestealer cult has two HQ that give +1 to hit in a bubble.

The core issue we have is that we pay the points for an elite army, but wind up with horde ballistic skill. This means we have the worst close combat in the game, absolute worst psychic defense and tied with necrons for worst psychic offense, and now the one phase we were meant to shine in we've become mediocre in. This can easily be relieved by giving our battlesuits bs3+. This solves most of the points cost issues too.

Crimzzen
Shas
Posts: 22

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#74 » Jul 12 2017 03:03

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:Just post it on their page


Their page is a graveyard of unanswered questions. Depressing.


As mentioned prior, I posted a list to the GW FB page AND got a response from there. Something along the lines of "This is great feedback and we will pass it on to the design team."

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#75 » Jul 12 2017 07:13

Here's possibly the final version. We're not adding anything more, only editing, so if you want to bring up additional issues we'll add them into the "round 2" of this petition. Here goes:

This message comes from the forum Advanced Tau Tactica, where thousands of users discuss competitive Tau tactics and list-building. We enjoy 8th Edition very much but feel that there are some important problems with the Tau Index.

1. The Markerlight table is irrelevant to many units. For most Tau units, 2-4 Markerlights offer no benefit, and highly-situational advantages at best. Previously one Markerlight hit provided +1 Ballistic Skill, now five hits are needed for the same effect. Markerlights hit on 4+ or 5+, so over ten Markerlights are now needed for +1 Ballistic Skill. +1 Ballistic Skill is a common perk available to many factions such as Space Marines, Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cults, and Necrons; for Tau it is very difficult to attain.

Possible Solutions: The threshold for getting +1 Ballistic Skill should be lowered, or players should be allowed to choose a benefit from the Markerlight table for each Markerlight hit.

2. Points costs for Commanders and XV8s are unbalanced. One Commander costs much less than two identically-armed XV8s, yet has more firepower. For example, one Commander with 4 Burst Cannons costs 116 points and statistically hits 13.3 times, while two XV8s armed with three Burst Cannons each cost 144 points total, yet will only statistically hit 12 times. It does not make sense that a Commander should be more powerful, and cheaper, than XV8s. This leads players to use only Commanders and not XV8s, the same problem in 7th Edition when players used only certain units.

Possible Solutions: XV8s should have BS 3+, or XV8s should cost fewer points, or Commanders should cost more points.

3. Tau long-range anti-tank units are much less effective than those of other factions. For example, the Hammerhead has a 44% chance to deal D6 wounds to a Rhino, while a Space Marine Predator with 4 Lascannons has a 37% chance to deal D6 chance yet fires 4 shots compared to the Hammerhead's 1 shot. The Space Marine Predator (202 points) outputs 413% more damage than the Hammerhead (171 points) despite only costing only 18% more points.

Possible Solutions: Railguns and Heavy Rail Rifles should do significantly more damage, or these units should cost fewer points.

User avatar
Lechai Skull
Shas'Saal
Posts: 365

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#76 » Jul 12 2017 07:24

I would prefer commanders to be restricted to three weapons than a price increase.

xv8's, riptide and alternates need BS3+ rather than a point drop.

User avatar
SniperTau
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 174

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#77 » Jul 12 2017 07:32

I agree battlesuits with bs3+ would help a lot of the balance issues at the moment. I think otherwise those three points are great.

User avatar
AenarIT
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 46

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#78 » Jul 13 2017 02:00

I'd say that the Crisis vs. Commanders comparison is only one side of the story.
While it is the most obvious balancing issue, I'd point out how the majority of our battlesuits are very unbalanced in point costs (Crisis, Riptide and Broadside). If those suits were balanced, we'd probably use them more instead of spamming Commanders.

User avatar
Vio'ra Mal'caor
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 228

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#79 » Jul 13 2017 02:52

Arka0415 wrote:
Hey, I'm just trying to be the optimistic calm guy in the room. I'm emphasizing the community, atmosphere, and dynamic of the army- Vior'la Mal'caor said that his army had been ruined, that years of his life were wasted, etc.


Do not put words in my mouth. I never said that.
For the Tau'va ATT!!!

User avatar
Yasu
Shas
Posts: 2

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#80 » Jul 13 2017 02:59

AenarIT wrote:I'd say that the Crisis vs. Commanders comparison is only one side of the story.
While it is the most obvious balancing issue, I'd point out how the majority of our battlesuits are very unbalanced in point costs (Crisis, Riptide and Broadside). If those suits were balanced, we'd probably use them more instead of spamming Commanders.

Ghostkeel too. And this our elite forces! meh...
And once more about our special drones - for example Pulse Accelerator or stealth drones. It our buffers, which cannot do it, because they can be targeted. I think they should have rule as characters.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#81 » Jul 13 2017 03:11

Vio'ra Mal'caor wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
Hey, I'm just trying to be the optimistic calm guy in the room. I'm emphasizing the community, atmosphere, and dynamic of the army- Vior'la Mal'caor said that his army had been ruined, that years of his life were wasted, etc.


Do not put words in my mouth. I never said that.


Here we are...

Vio'ra Mal'caor wrote:a important part of my life for so many years had been shivved in the face until it was unrecognisable.


Vio'ra Mal'caor wrote:GW has ruined the Tau by giving them rules that seem like pale imitations of the Tau we love.


Is it worth arguing that point? I'm not putting words in your mouth, you said them plainly yourself.

And that's not a bad thing! I absolutely respect your opinion, and you have every right to voice your ideas!

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#82 » Jul 13 2017 03:17

The message is out! Thank you so much to everyone who contributed. Let's hope we get a response! We'll chat more on various threads here on ATT, and maybe a week from now I'll start a new thread like this and we can think about more big issues! Until then, thanks again, and tau'va!

This message comes from the forum Advanced Tau Tactica, where thousands of users discuss competitive Tau tactics and list-building. We enjoy 8th Edition very much but feel that there are some important problems with the Tau Index.

1. The Markerlight table is irrelevant to many units. For most Tau units, 2-4 Markerlights offer no benefit, and highly-situational advantages at best. Previously one Markerlight hit provided +1 Ballistic Skill, now five hits are needed for the same effect. Markerlights hit on 4+ or 5+, so over ten Markerlights are now needed for +1 Ballistic Skill. +1 Ballistic Skill is a common perk available to many factions such as Space Marines, Astra Militarum, Genestealer Cults, and Necrons; for Tau it is very difficult to attain.

Possible Solutions: The threshold for getting +1 Ballistic Skill should be lowered, or players should be allowed to choose a benefit from the Markerlight table for each Markerlight hit.

2. Points costs for Commanders and XV8s are unbalanced. One Commander costs much less than two identically-armed XV8s, yet has more firepower. For example, one Commander with 4 Burst Cannons costs 116 points and statistically hits 13.3 times, while two XV8s armed with three Burst Cannons each cost 144 points total, yet will only statistically hit 12 times. It does not make sense that a Commander should be more powerful, and cheaper, than XV8s. This leads players to use only Commanders and not XV8s, the same problem in 7th Edition when players used only certain units.

Possible Solutions: XV8s should have BS 3+, or XV8s should cost fewer points, or Commanders should cost more points.

3. Tau long-range anti-tank units are much less effective than those of other factions. For example, the Hammerhead has a 44% chance to deal D6 wounds to a Rhino, while a Space Marine Predator with 4 Lascannons has a 37% chance to deal D6 chance yet fires 4 shots compared to the Hammerhead's 1 shot. The Space Marine Predator (202 points) outputs 413% more damage than the Hammerhead (171 points) despite only costing only 18% more points.

Possible Solutions: Railguns and Heavy Rail Rifles should do significantly more damage, or these units should cost fewer points.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#83 » Jul 13 2017 03:57

That didn't take long!

This is great feedback! Thank you - we shall pass it on to the rules guys.


This probably means it vanished into the void of amateur rules suggestions, but I'm happy we got a response. Great work everyone! :D

Jacket
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#84 » Jul 13 2017 08:38

The overwhelming consensus on the internet right now is Tau are terrible granted there are still some people even in these communities ignoring all evidence based arguments and just saying Tau are good but they are a vast minority. The only big place I know of with anyone still saying Tau are fine all is well is Big Brother frontlinegaming (as usual). The army could be getting squatted and removed from the game and they would say Tau are doing fine and too good.

Even the dark city has a lot of sympathisers for the gutted Tau army and that was in the weeks leading up the launch now that we've had more experience I'm sure they are starting to realise how bad the Tau are.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3548

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#85 » Jul 13 2017 08:42

Jacket wrote:The overwhelming consensus on the internet right now is Tau are terrible granted there are still some people even in these communities ignoring all evidence based arguments and just saying Tau are good but they are a vast minority. The only big place I know of with anyone still saying Tau are fine all is well is Big Brother frontlinegaming (as usual). The army could be getting squatted and removed from the game and they would say Tau are doing fine and too good.

Even the dark city has a lot of sympathisers for the gutted Tau army and that was in the weeks leading up the launch now that we've had more experience I'm sure they are starting to realise how bad the Tau are.

Honestly the vast minority are both, people who say T'au are good and people who say T'au are terrible. The majority is in the "T'au are okay but could need some adjustment basically everywhere" camp. ;)

Jacket
Shas'Saal
Posts: 368

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#86 » Jul 13 2017 08:46

In that case change my description of terrible to your description because that is what I meant. I come from the land of video games and snow. From the midnight troll where hot hyperbole flows.

It is simply our way lol. :)

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1929

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#87 » Jul 13 2017 09:02

Jacket wrote:The overwhelming consensus on the internet right now is Tau are terrible granted there are still some people even in these communities ignoring all evidence based arguments and just saying Tau are good but they are a vast minority. The only big place I know of with anyone still saying Tau are fine all is well is Big Brother frontlinegaming (as usual). The army could be getting squatted and removed from the game and they would say Tau are doing fine and too good.

Even the dark city has a lot of sympathisers for the gutted Tau army and that was in the weeks leading up the launch now that we've had more experience I'm sure they are starting to realise how bad the Tau are.


I understand your point, and I agree that Tau are worse off. However, people like me aren't "ignoring the evidence" (although some may be), rather, we're trying to make the best of the hand we're dealt. Saying Tau are "gutted" or "terrible" won't make them any stronger, and really only fuels the bitterness around the issue. I'm a competitive player, and always have been. If the Codex comes out and Tau don't change, I will need to rethink my position. However, for the time being, there's no reason not to try our best at making lists and seeing how much competitiveness we can pump back into our flagging army.

User avatar
Unusualsuspect
Kroot'Ui
Kroot'Ui
Posts: 596

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#88 » Jul 13 2017 10:20

Arka0415 wrote:
Jacket wrote:The overwhelming consensus on the internet right now is Tau are terrible granted there are still some people even in these communities ignoring all evidence based arguments and just saying Tau are good but they are a vast minority. The only big place I know of with anyone still saying Tau are fine all is well is Big Brother frontlinegaming (as usual). The army could be getting squatted and removed from the game and they would say Tau are doing fine and too good.

Even the dark city has a lot of sympathisers for the gutted Tau army and that was in the weeks leading up the launch now that we've had more experience I'm sure they are starting to realise how bad the Tau are.


I understand your point, and I agree that Tau are worse off. However, people like me aren't "ignoring the evidence" (although some may be), rather, we're trying to make the best of the hand we're dealt. Saying Tau are "gutted" or "terrible" won't make them any stronger, and really only fuels the bitterness around the issue. I'm a competitive player, and always have been. If the Codex comes out and Tau don't change, I will need to rethink my position. However, for the time being, there's no reason not to try our best at making lists and seeing how much competitiveness we can pump back into our flagging army.


Step back from the forum for a moment, and consider for a moment whether Jacket is necessarily talking about you.

There ARE people on the internet, and even on this forum, who aren't merely "trying our best" or "just being as competitive as possible", but instead actively believe and post that the T'au army is fine as is (or even overpowered). They exist, and they aren't you...

So to review: Jacket says some people ignore evidence and say T'au are actually, positively good for balance (which you did not), and you presumed that Jacket was talking directly about you and people like you (who didn't do whbat Jacket is explaining) despite the existence of OTHER people who DO ignore evidence and say T'au are actually, positiuvely good for balance.

So while your message is appropriate, it isn't really meaningful as a response either - the T'au army is strongly and easily argued a low-tier army, which doesn't say that it can't be competitive (and T'au players can and will try, as we always have), just that T'au players don't actually compete on a level playing field.

That's a legitimate complaint, and while we should certainly make the best of what we have, we should neither IGNORE the reality of our codex's balance, nor FOCUS on poor units to the exclusion of discussion of our few gems among the rough, nor FOCUS on excellent units without discussing the issues/concerns/foibles/vulnerabilities with the poor units (because GW needs FEEDBACK to actually fix those units).

User avatar
deathboon
Shas'Saal
Posts: 208

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#89 » Jul 13 2017 09:37

A suggestion for how to fix the marker light table:

Keep the table itself unchanged and instead change how it is used to the following:

For each successful marker light hit T'AU EMPIRE units can select and use one bonus from the Marker Light table. No one unit can use the same bonus twice.

In this way the table doesn't need to change, but 5 hits would allow units to reroll ones, fire seeker missiles at full BS, Ignore movement penalties, ignore cover, and gain +1 to hit in shooting. Of course this might necessitate an increase in points for markerlights (maybe 10 points each), but it would fix everything that is wrong with them without making them too broken.

User avatar
Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: Let's Contact GW!

Post#90 » Jul 13 2017 10:06

Jacket wrote:
Even the dark city has a lot of sympathisers for the gutted Tau army and that was in the weeks leading up the launch now that we've had more experience I'm sure they are starting to realise how bad the Tau are.


The Dark Eldar forum? That's quite nice of them! We used to be their nemesis in 7th... I even ahd to stop playing Tau vs my friend's Dark Eldar because he was getting no chance or fun at all.

Bitter rivals make strong friendships when one side understands what the other was going on, it seems :smile:

Return to “Rules & FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests