Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Discuss any rules that are confusing or bothering you.
User avatar
Glarblar
Shas'Saal
Posts: 265

Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#1 » Sep 29 2017 10:11

Chances are you are using the 'fast dice' rule and rolling 20+ dice for you CIB XV8s. Well if you are, you may not be allocating wounds correctly.

I just realized this today while reading da rules and found something interesting:
"If you make one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after all it's weapons shots have been resolved"

Now here is the important distinction:
1) each weapon can only cause a single mortal wound
2) the mortal wound is inflicted on the bearer of the weapon
3) the mortal wound is assessed at the weapon level

Knowing this how would you roll the dice then? Well I will show you below:

Lets say you have a 3 man squad of CIB XV8s loaded out as such, 3x 3 CIB.
-D3s are rolled for on a per model basis.
We start on one of the 3 CIB models and roll 3 dice numbering 2, 3, and 6. (1, 2, and 3 overcharged shots respectively)
-Shots are now rolled for on a per weapon basis
lets roll for the 3 shot: 1, 1, 5 - that's 1 mortal wound and 1 hit.
2 shot: 1, 6 - 1 mortal wound and 1 hit
1 shot: 3 - 1 miss
-resolves shots and mortal wounds after each weapon has fired
in the end, our XV8 take 2 mortal wounds and resolves 2 hits on its target. Our XV8 has 1 wound remaining

Now lets say we triplicate this result.
Our end wound pool wound be 6 mortal wounds and 6 hits. If we were using Fast dice one might believe that the squad had taken 6 mortal wounds and must remove 2 models.
BUT, in reality each XV8 has taken 2 mortal wounds a piece due to how the order is intended.


Here is something that further complicates this:
Lets say we have overcharge the weapons again and come up with the same results. Well, we now have to stop after the 1,1,5 roll because our model has been slain. He does not get to fire his other 2 CIB because the first has killed him.


Am I thinking about this incorrectly?

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#2 » Sep 29 2017 11:18

I would agree with the first situation, how wounds are inflicted. The second point, stopping on the second volley because the model is slain, I disagree. The rule says "If you make one or more hit rolls of 1, the bearer suffers a mortal wound after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved" but, all fire is simultaneously happening. We might roll the dice one at a time, but they're not pulling the trigger one after the other.

I use different colored dice, so I know which model fired what shots, but not by weapon for the reason I listed.

Just my opinion, and it could be interjecting logic where it doesn't belong, but it's the same reason why we have to declare all of our shots.

Edit : looked up the actual wording and copied from battle scribe.

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 380

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#3 » Sep 30 2017 01:38

Draco023 wrote:... but, all fire is simultaneously happening. ...


Not rly, all fire from a unit to a unit is resolved in bulk, but it's not simultaneous at all. Technically, every individual attack is resolved completely one at a time, including removing models as casualties.

Ricordis
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 323

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#4 » Sep 30 2017 04:15

If the target unit dies before you resolved all your shots I think you don't even have to roll any more dice and risk throwing a 1.

Most people upgrading to 8th edition kept rolling dice like before and missed the small differences.
In our play group, in the rule learning phase, we agreed on rolling every die one by one until we got all the new rules.
I have to admit: In many cases we still throw them one at a time just to avoid disputes. And for dramatic purposes :D
"My Sunshark drops some bombs. BAM BAM BAM..."
"Okay, Armor saves on my Dreadnought. PLING, PLING, ouch, PLING..."
(Throw a die for each BAM or PLING)
Oh, we play with a house rule: If the damage done doubles the remaining wounds a vehice may explode on 5+.

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#5 » Sep 30 2017 08:54

Gragagrogog wrote:
Draco023 wrote:... but, all fire is simultaneously happening. ...


Not rly, all fire from a unit to a unit is resolved in bulk, but it's not simultaneous at all. Technically, every individual attack is resolved completely one at a time, including removing models as casualties.


So technically the target unit can pull models off one shot at a time and potentially cause the attacker to waste the remainder if they change the range enough ( out of range totally, or out of rapid fire range so not enough shots, etc) , even within the same units firing? But they're also allowed to pull casualties that aren't in range, if they'd rather..... I can't even, the illogic, it hurts!

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 380

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#6 » Sep 30 2017 09:27

Draco023 wrote:
Gragagrogog wrote:
Draco023 wrote:... but, all fire is simultaneously happening. ...


Not rly, all fire from a unit to a unit is resolved in bulk, but it's not simultaneous at all. Technically, every individual attack is resolved completely one at a time, including removing models as casualties.


So technically the target unit can pull models off one shot at a time and potentially cause the attacker to waste the remainder if they change the range enough ( out of range totally, or out of rapid fire range so not enough shots, etc) , even within the same units firing? But they're also allowed to pull casualties that aren't in range, if they'd rather..... I can't even, the illogic, it hurts!


Nope, you only check range once when picking targets, after you declare which weapon shoots where, the weapon profiles (rapid fire or not, overcharged or not, etc.) are decided and you don't check the range anymore. Then you pick a target unit and resolve all attacks against it before resolving another target unit. (The rules even say that a wound can be allocated to a model that's out of LoS and range.)

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#7 » Sep 30 2017 10:27

You shouldn't be removing models before they shoot while you are shooting. Back page of our index with weapons descriptions (page 136) state the bearer suffers damage after ALL the model's weapons shots are RESOLVED (for the model). Or that's how I read it from its wording which is what battlescribe has as well that is qouted in the OP.

Another questionalable interaction regarding CIBs doing damage to the bearer. If you have a 9 man team of crisis suits for argument sake,eight recieved 1 wound from CIB damage and the last recieved 2 wounds. If that unit is later shot at by an enemy unit and suffers an unsaved wound. Do you get to choose which model to allocate the damage to? That would be a big damage sponge before models get removed in the extreme example.
Last edited by Lostroninsoul on Sep 30 2017 10:49, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#8 » Sep 30 2017 10:36

Ricordis wrote:If the target unit dies before you resolved all your shots I think you don't even have to roll any more dice and risk throwing a 1.


Seems it should be all in one way or the other though, all shots happen at once regardless of the results ( so you resolve the overcharged shots even if they kill the model halfway through), or they're one at a time which allows the firing unit to stop shooting once they're all dead( to eliminate the risk of more 1s) or even shift to another target at that point. I Know you can't shift targets, but the logic that allows one should allow the other. Again, logic has no place on the table top lol!

Gragagrogog wrote:
Nope, you only check range once when picking targets, after you declare which weapon shoots where, the weapon profiles (rapid fire or not, overcharged or not, etc.) are decided and you don't check the range anymore. Then you pick a target unit and resolve all attacks against it before resolving another target unit. (The rules even say that a wound can be allocated to a model that's out of LoS and range.)



I knew you could pull models out of LoS and range, it was pulling casualties from both units as shots are resolved re: overcharged fatalities that muddled the issue for me. I'm not a tournament player, just with friends, but I'll keep this in mind in case it comes up again, cheers!

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#9 » Sep 30 2017 10:41

Lostroninsoul wrote:Another questionalable interaction regarding CIBs doing damage to the bearer. If you have a three man team of crisis suits, two recieved 1 wound from CIB damage and the last recieved 2 wounds. If that unit is later shot at by an enemy unit and suffers an unsaved wound. Do you get to choose which model to allocate the damage to?


I had that exact situation happen to me last Sunday. The rules say "If a model in the target unit has already lost any wounds,the damage must be allocated to that model." Not "to the most wounded model". We rolled off for it because it was a bit vague. Was this FAQed?

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#10 » Sep 30 2017 10:50

I did not see it in any FAQ yet

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 380

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#11 » Sep 30 2017 10:53

^ Having multiple wounded models is somewhat undefined situation, you can't pick "that one wounded model" if there's more of them. I'd say just choose any one of the wounded models you want to satisfy this condition.

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#12 » Sep 30 2017 10:58

Other questionable CIB reaction we may run into. Does that mortal damage drip onto other models if a xv8 model is slain before all Mortal wounds is resolved?

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#13 » Sep 30 2017 11:10

Lostroninsoul wrote:Other questionable CIB reaction we may run into. Does that mortal damage drip onto other models if a xv8 model is slain before all Mortal wounds is resolved?


Oh man, that's an ugly thought. I would think no, only because the rule says "the bearer" not " the unit". This should be one of those times specific rule overrides the general. But RAW, mortal wounds spill over... I'd still go with specific, but killing two marines on snake eyes would be pretty funny, too close together as the plasma rifle overloads. :D Not as funny as an entire crisis squad going up in an ionic fireball with 9 1s rolled! :dead: .... I might have a warped sense of humor.....


Edit: never mind, I forgot it's only one wound per weapon regardless. Still a funny image!
That comes back to the sequence of events, there could only be spill over if all weapons fire at the same time per model. If there's a ripple fire, then the model is removed at the first wound and firing stops.
Last edited by Draco023 on Sep 30 2017 11:33, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Gragagrogog
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 380

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#14 » Sep 30 2017 11:23

Lostroninsoul wrote:Other questionable CIB reaction we may run into. Does that mortal damage drip onto other models if a xv8 model is slain before all Mortal wounds is resolved?


I fail to see how this would ever happen, unless you use fast rolling here which you really shouldn't.

User avatar
Lostroninsoul
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#15 » Sep 30 2017 11:29

I fail to see how this would ever happen, unless you use fast rolling here which you really shouldn't.

3 man crisis team. One XV8 has 2 wounds from a previous turn. One of its CIB overcharged rolls ones twice for the hit rolls, scenario provided.

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#16 » Sep 30 2017 11:35

Lostroninsoul wrote:
I fail to see how this would ever happen, unless you use fast rolling here which you really shouldn't.

3 man crisis team. One XV8 has 2 wounds from a previous turn. One of its CIB overcharged rolls ones twice for the hit rolls, scenario provided.


One or more 1s causes a mortal wound, not a wound per one on the same weapon. Made the same mistake on my post. :-(

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1554

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#17 » Sep 30 2017 11:46

Draco023 wrote:
Lostroninsoul wrote:
I fail to see how this would ever happen, unless you use fast rolling here which you really shouldn't.

3 man crisis team. One XV8 has 2 wounds from a previous turn. One of its CIB overcharged rolls ones twice for the hit rolls, scenario provided.


One or more 1s causes a mortal wound, not a wound per one on the same weapon. Made the same mistake on my post. :-(


This is important! If you roll 18 shots for your XV8s, and get 9 ones... it's possible (albeit unlikely) all of those ones were on the same XV8, meaning the squad only takes one wound! It's important to roll separately per suit, or at least different colors of dice.

User avatar
Draco023
Shas'Saal
Posts: 47

Re: Have you been Overcharging your CIBs correctly?

Post#18 » Sep 30 2017 12:01

Arka0415 wrote:
This is important! If you roll 18 shots for your XV8s, and get 9 ones... it's possible (albeit unlikely) all of those ones were on the same XV8, meaning the squad only takes one wound! It's important to roll separately per suit, or at least different colors of dice.



This is were the rub is coming from. Is it at most 1 mortal wound per model, or per weapon? The weapon listing says it's "after this weapon's shots have been resolved" not " after this model's shots have been resolved". If this is the case, you'd need to roll each weapon separately, not just each model separately. I'm leaning toward each model can take up to 3 wounds( one or more 1 per gun causes one wound), but all the shots still go off. Which leads to the question of mortal wound spill over if the model only had 1 wound left.

Return to “Rules & FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests