Arka0415's 8th Edition Army List

Discuss and develop your army list amongst new players and veterans alike.
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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#37 » Dec 14 2017 04:16

Arka0415 wrote:
Shas'O R'Kai wrote:My only suggestion would be to see if you can add 3 firewarriors by removing 3 pathfinders. Then split the 3 teams of 10 down to 6 teams of 5 and make it 2 battalion detachments. But I think I remember you saying that you didn't have enough Shas'Ui painted and you wanted to have that fully represented. If that's the case, then I think you're pretty much done! Looks like a fun and competitive list Arka.

Yeah, when I get those Shas'ui painted up I'll certainly make that change. For the time being I need to get my XV8s, and that Commander, assembled though. I'm really hoping we see 15+ points dropped from every XV8 when the Codex comes out, I'd love to see this list drop to 1900 or fewer points.


Yeah that sounds good! I guess the only thing it'll add is basically morale immunity and a couple command points. Not essential because you'll have a lot already, and I don't know about you, but I rarely go through all of mine before turn 4. By which point the game is often decided! That being said, I've yet to play using the CA stratagem which I'm sure will change everything!

Personally I'd love to see all the battlesuits go to BS 3+. Not going to happen I know, so I'd also be happy with 15pts taken from the base cost. I think our special weapons also need to come down, eg the missile pod. I think that needs to be 19pts. Out of curiosity, whats the cost of an autocannon these days? It's a comparable gun and would be interesting to know how its pointed now. As they are, what do you think broadsides need to come down to, points wise, to make them viable? I was thinking 160pts for a missileside, and about 140pts for a Railside. Interested to hear your thoughts Arka! (and anyone else!)

R'Kai
Playing with a short reach since 2007 :crafty:

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Arka0415
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#38 » Dec 17 2017 09:00

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:Yeah that sounds good! I guess the only thing it'll add is basically morale immunity and a couple command points. Not essential because you'll have a lot already, and I don't know about you, but I rarely go through all of mine before turn 4. By which point the game is often decided! That being said, I've yet to play using the CA stratagem which I'm sure will change everything!

The Fire Warrior change will really just be for the Codex. I'm sure we'll get some powerful stratagems, and increasing the number of stratagems you can use would be a colossal increase in firepower (probably). Also, I do recommend using the CA stratagem- you'll use it every turn and likely spend all of your Command Points by turn 3-4 probably, if you have 7-8 total.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I think our special weapons also need to come down, eg the missile pod. I think that needs to be 19pts. Out of curiosity, whats the cost of an autocannon these days? It's a comparable gun and would be interesting to know how its pointed now.

Autocannons cost 15 points. I'd like to see Missile Pods at 15-18 points while the XV8 chassis itself goes to 25-30. An XV8 with three Missile Pods for 75 points is much more fair than 114.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:As they are, what do you think broadsides need to come down to, points wise, to make them viable? I was thinking 160pts for a missileside, and about 140pts for a Railside. Interested to hear your thoughts Arka! (and anyone else!)

If the weapon characteristics on Broadsides don't change, in order to get Railsides to a nice 30 points per wound they would need to cost 80 points excluding secondary weapons. Assuming SMS ends up costing 15 points per, that's 110 points for the model. That may seem too low, but remember that Commanders are 50% more efficient than even that.

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Shas'O R'Kai
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#39 » Dec 18 2017 08:24

Arka0415 wrote:The Fire Warrior change will really just be for the Codex. I'm sure we'll get some powerful stratagems, and increasing the number of stratagems you can use would be a colossal increase in firepower (probably). Also, I do recommend using the CA stratagem- you'll use it every turn and likely spend all of your Command Points by turn 3-4 probably, if you have 7-8 total.


Yeah, I've been theorizing over what we'll get. I'd imagine several in-keeping with the themes from the 7th ed formations. I'll definitely be using the CA stratagem every turn. It's really really good.

Arka0415 wrote:Autocannons cost 15 points. I'd like to see Missile Pods at 15-18 points while the XV8 chassis itself goes to 25-30. An XV8 with three Missile Pods for 75 points is much more fair than 114.


Wow, that's so so cheap. I really don't understand how they came up with the points cost for the missile pod and thought it was fair. And did autocannons not get a points hike in CA? I think you're about on the money with the points of a missile pod. I think 16 would be fair, and the XV8 Chassis needs to go down to about 27. Even at that points cost, a commander using the current pricing is STILL more efficient than a 3 man deathrain team. However the crisis team has way more damage potential due to higher volume of shots. I'd like that balance, because it means you can use your commander like a scalpel for smaller but more reliable damage, and the crisis team like a hammer that can potentially wipe out a unit(albeit unreliably).

Arka0415 wrote:If the weapon characteristics on Broadsides don't change, in order to get Railsides to a nice 30 points per wound they would need to cost 80 points excluding secondary weapons. Assuming SMS ends up costing 15 points per, that's 110 points for the model. That may seem too low, but remember that Commanders are 50% more efficient than even that.


To be honest, 110 isn't actually that low when you consider a Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawler is 135. It has 1 less save, double the wounds, 2 more toughness, more accuracy, more powerful guns, and more mobility(being able to move and fire at no penalty). So in reality I'd say maybe even a bit lower would be more fair(but much lower than 110 would break the theme of 8th where vehicles and big units are expensive). However I'd much prefer to just see a buff to weaponry like 2D3 shots on the HRR. I think 140-160 for a 2D3 shot railside with SMS + support system would be ok. It's less expensive than a Laser Predator for about the same damage output(with more variance) but it's on a much smaller platform with less wounds.

What d'you think?

R'Kai
Playing with a short reach since 2007 :crafty:

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Arka0415
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#40 » Dec 18 2017 09:36

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:Yeah, I've been theorizing over what we'll get. I'd imagine several in-keeping with the themes from the 7th ed formations. I'll definitely be using the CA stratagem every turn. It's really really good.

Personally I'm not going to guess, but we should get at least a few that make our shooting better, right? I mean, it would be bizarre if we didn't. It won't take much to make Tau competitive again, I think.

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I really don't understand how they came up with the points cost for the missile pod and thought it was fair.

I think it's a combination of two things- the Missile Pod is Assault (rather than heavy) and the Indexes over-value random damage (the Autocannon is D2). However the Imperial Guard don't need to mount Autocannons on 42-point platforms... :-?

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:I think 16 would be fair, and the XV8 Chassis needs to go down to about 27.

As long as other weapons saw comparable cost reductions (Burst Cannons to 4, Plasma Rifles to 6, Cyclic Ion Blasters to 12, now I'm just wishlisting!) those would be excellent points changes. Let's keep our hopes up!

Shas'O R'Kai wrote:To be honest, 110 isn't actually that low when you consider a Neutron Laser Onager Dunecrawler is 135. It has 1 less save, double the wounds, 2 more toughness, more accuracy, more powerful guns, and more mobility(being able to move and fire at no penalty). So in reality I'd say maybe even a bit lower would be more fair(but much lower than 110 would break the theme of 8th where vehicles and big units are expensive). However I'd much prefer to just see a buff to weaponry like 2D3 shots on the HRR.

I felt dirty even suggesting that Broadsides cost ~100 points, but honestly it wouldn't be bad. Plenty of things like Razorbacks, Tauroxes, and Dunecrawlers output lots of damage for similar points costs. Though I like your thinking- I'd love to see a stronger Broadside, rather than a cheaper Broadside.

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Arka0415
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#41 » Jan 04 2018 08:31

From here on out I'll be revising this list again. Based on the lackluster performance of the single Devilfish (see my thread here: viewtopic.php?p=342629 ), the mechanized component has been removed. Given the models I currently have painted I have little to fill the remaining points, so for the time being this will remain as an 1800-point list.

The big revision would be to go to a two-battalion list, and I have Shas'uis being painted that will allow me to do that.

Otherwise, what this list lacks is a solid anti-infantry component. Would there be anything better for that role, besides a swarm of Gun Drones?

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Lostroninsoul
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#42 » Jan 05 2018 06:22

I have been reconsidering the merits of a flame-suit for anti infantry. My stealth team will take two shield drones for safety at a LGS 1500 point event tomorrow.

Your CIB crisis teams w/drones should be able to help infantry heavy armies. Your path finders /Firewarriors also can help keep infantry spam down. I think you have adequate anti infantry

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Arka0415
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#43 » Jan 07 2018 09:00

After a lot of re-drafting I've decided to remove the Devilfish and replace it with a few addtional options. However, due to my collection not being fully painted, I can't quite field 2000 points yet. For the time being, here's what I'm considering for an 1800-point list:

-

HQ - Aun’va, Master of the Undying Spirit; 2x Ethereal Honour Guard (75)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon; 2x Shield Drones (137)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifles (60)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)

Total: 1800 - CP: 8 (1 Battalion Detachment, 1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

The first thing you may notice is the XV8 squads pushed to 8x CIBs instead of my usual 6x with ATS. This isn't a permanent change (yet) but is connected to my discussion with Gunrock and Shas'o R'kai and others in this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27009 I'm going to start a new thread on the topic of CIBs in the next few days, so feel free to look forward to that if it's a topic you're interested in.

As I continue to paint more models (and hope for Codex rumors soon) I expect to expand to two Battalions as well as possibly additional Gun Drones or an additional Commander.

Watcher on the wall
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#44 » Jan 07 2018 09:50

Arka0415 wrote:After a lot of re-drafting I've decided to remove the Devilfish and replace it with a few addtional options. However, due to my collection not being fully painted, I can't quite field 2000 points yet. For the time being, here's what I'm considering for an 1800-point list:

-

HQ - Aun’va, Master of the Undying Spirit; 2x Ethereal Honour Guard (75)
HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight (42)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon; 2x Shield Drones (137)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifles (60)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)

Total: 1800 - CP: 8 (1 Battalion Detachment, 1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

The first thing you may notice is the XV8 squads pushed to 8x CIBs instead of my usual 6x with ATS. This isn't a permanent change (yet) but is connected to my discussion with Gunrock and Shas'o R'kai and others in this thread here: viewtopic.php?f=48&t=27009 I'm going to start a new thread on the topic of CIBs in the next few days, so feel free to look forward to that if it's a topic you're interested in.

As I continue to paint more models (and hope for Codex rumors soon) I expect to expand to two Battalions as well as possibly additional Gun Drones or an additional Commander.

I think the key to the CIB issue may be a compromise of one squad being armed with 2x CIB + ATS and the other squad in the 8x CIB, 1x DC configuration. That way you get the best of both worlds: increased anti-heavy infantry firepower, and a degree of anti-horde utility - and you get double the return on the DC by having it buff 12 Gun Drones instead of 6.

As to rounding out the list to 2000, looking at your models there don't seem to be many options beyond a vehicle (unsatisfactory) or just a swarm of 20 or so Gun Drones with a Cadre Fireblade added in - although if you add those I think you could make a few other changes to increase synergy like swapping out the MP commander for a Coldstar with a DC.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Amy List

Post#45 » Jan 08 2018 07:48

Watcher on the wall wrote:I think the key to the CIB issue may be a compromise of one squad being armed with 2x CIB + ATS and the other squad in the 8x CIB, 1x DC configuration. That way you get the best of both worlds: increased anti-heavy infantry firepower, and a degree of anti-horde utility - and you get double the return on the DC by having it buff 12 Gun Drones instead of 6.

I do like the idea of "doubling" the return on the Drone Controller, however, I'm unsure about running close-range, non-redundant XV8 squads. I may try to split the difference and take 8xCIB+DC on one squad and 9xCIB on the other.

Watcher on the wall wrote:As to rounding out the list to 2000, looking at your models there don't seem to be many options beyond a vehicle (unsatisfactory) or just a swarm of 20 or so Gun Drones with a Cadre Fireblade added in - although if you add those I think you could make a few other changes to increase synergy like swapping out the MP commander for a Coldstar with a DC.

I agree. I think for the moment, given that the "big guns" in my collection (Broadsides) are less-than-useful right now, I think the best course of action is to stick to 1750 for the time being.





Looking at the possibility that the Tau Codex may not be out for a while, I think it's time to drop the fluffy element of the list (i.e. Aun'va) for TAC. I don't use him in competitive games anyway, but seeing as most of the players in my local meta have updated Codex armies I think even in fun games Tau will need all the help they can get. Here's my new list idea:

-

HQ - Commander w/ 3x Missile Pods, ATS (156) [Puretide Engram Neurochip]
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Commander w/ 4x Fusion Blasters; 2x Shield Drones (176)
HQ - Cadre Fireblade w/ Markerlight; 2x Shield Drones (58) [Warlord, Exemplar of Mont'ka]
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Troops - 7x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (59)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x XV8s w/ 8x Cyclic Ion Blasters, Drone Controller; 6x Gun Drones (323)
Elites - 3x Stealthsuits w/ Fusion Blaster, 2x Burst Cannons, Homing Beacon; 2x Shield Drones (137)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 3x Markerlights, 3x Ion Rifles (60)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Pathfinders w/ 6x Markerlights (48)

Total: 1741 - CP: 8 (1 Battalion Detachment, 1 Vanguard Detachment, 1 Outrider Detachment)

-

Seeing as the list is 9 points under, I have an idea. Given that many armies have access to sniper-style units now I'm giving my Fireblade a pair of Shield Drones; however, it might be worth it to give a Pathfinder squad those Shield Drones instead, embed a Pulse Accelerator Drone, and then deploy the Pathfinder Drones with the Fireblade. The Shield Drones would protect the PAD, and the Fireblade would be even better protected against sniper attacks. Since the drones have no shooting weapons there would be no problem advancing them 8+D6", allowing them to easily move around the main infantry body.

I'm still normally opposed to Pathfinder Drones, but what do you think?

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Yojimbob
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Army List

Post#46 » Jan 09 2018 12:02

Not a huge fan of the fusion hiding in the stealths nor do I like the idea of having more than the min size min number of fire warrior squads for a battalion. Tossing in a fireblade, too many firewarriors AND the pathfinder PAD means you can probably get another commander OR a bucket of drones which will benefit you infinitely more, imho.

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Arka0415
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Army List

Post#47 » Jan 09 2018 07:33

Yojimbob wrote:Not a huge fan of the fusion hiding in the stealths...

Yeah, it's not perfect. However, since the Stealthsuits are there to assist one of the Fusion Commanders, having a 5th Fusion Blaster has come in handy in a number of games. The Burst Cannons, on the other hand, have done little. Given that it's only +11 points on the price of the squad I've come to like it. Do you have some experience or observations to the contrary though? I'd be curious to hear.

Yojimbob wrote:...nor do I like the idea of having more than the min size min number of fire warrior squads for a battalion. Tossing in a fireblade, too many firewarriors AND the pathfinder PAD means you can probably get another commander OR a bucket of drones which will benefit you infinitely more, imho.

You're right in this case I think, however, looking at my collection I don't think I have much more to add. By dropping Fire Warriors and not adding the PAD I could free up 113 points, with the Fireblade included that's 155 points.

However, I just don't have a fourth Commander, the only things I have available are 1 convertible Hammerhead/Longstrike, 3 Broadsides, 1 Ethereal, and 12 Gun Drones.

I could drop down to 15 Fire Warriors with two squads of 5 Gun Drones, or something to that effect. What do you think?

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Arka0415
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Army List

Post#48 » Jan 10 2018 04:25

Yojimbob wrote:...or a bucket of drones which will benefit you infinitely more, imho.

I could switch the 28 Fire Warriors for this, instead:

Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Costs a few more points but would definitely provide solid firepower, although with less Fireblade synergy.

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Yojimbob
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Army List

Post#49 » Jan 10 2018 12:36

Arka0415 wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:Not a huge fan of the fusion hiding in the stealths...

Yeah, it's not perfect. However, since the Stealthsuits are there to assist one of the Fusion Commanders, having a 5th Fusion Blaster has come in handy in a number of games. The Burst Cannons, on the other hand, have done little. Given that it's only +11 points on the price of the squad I've come to like it. Do you have some experience or observations to the contrary though? I'd be curious to hear.


No experience, just don't like putting deadly/expensive weapons on things that don't do damage reliably. If you're using things with bs4+ to support a bs2+ unit, you likely won't have committed lights to that target and don't really help yourself. If you keep the BC then your firewarriors and gun drones will likely be firing at the same target as your stealths thus buffing multiple targets and giving the squad a better chance to be offensive. I definitely see the advantage of it since it's going to be near the fusion commander and having the backup shot is useful, I just don't relish the idea of making a squad more expensive than it needs to be when it's sole job is to deliver a much more efficient killing machine.

Arka0415 wrote:
Yojimbob wrote:...or a bucket of drones which will benefit you infinitely more, imho.

I could switch the 28 Fire Warriors for this, instead:

Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Troops - 6x Fire Warriors w/ Markerlight (51)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)
Fast Attack - 6x Gun Drones (48)

Costs a few more points but would definitely provide solid firepower, although with less Fireblade synergy.


I like that much better.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: Arka0415's 8th Edition Army List

Post#50 » Jan 10 2018 07:41

Yojimbob wrote:No experience, just don't like putting deadly/expensive weapons on things that don't do damage reliably. If you're using things with bs4+ to support a bs2+ unit, you likely won't have committed lights to that target and don't really help yourself. If you keep the BC then your firewarriors and gun drones will likely be firing at the same target as your stealths thus buffing multiple targets and giving the squad a better chance to be offensive. I definitely see the advantage of it since it's going to be near the fusion commander and having the backup shot is useful, I just don't relish the idea of making a squad more expensive than it needs to be when it's sole job is to deliver a much more efficient killing machine.

That's a very good point. I'd largely been satisfied with BS4+ and re-rolling ones with the Fusion Blaster (since, as you mentioned, it's supporting a BS2+ unit). However I can see how that's not entirely efficient.

One thing to remember though is that there are many cases where a Fusion Commander would need to fire at a target with 5x Markerlights, especially when supporting a squad of XV8s which desperately need the accuracy buff.

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