Does anyone know exactly what Battlesuit Neurosis is and exactly what its effects are?

What I know about the condition is limited. The definition of the word neurosis is this:
1. A functional disorder in which feelings of anxiety, obsessional thoughts, compulsive acts, and physical complaints without objective evidence of disease, in various degrees and patterns, dominate the personality.
2. A relatively mild personality disorder typified by excessive anxiety or indecision and a degree of social or interpersonal maladjustment.

I remember an article about Battlesuit Configurations on the GW website that said in connection to the condition:

"The Ethereal caste is very aware of the trust that is implicit in the issuing of a battlesuit to a warrior. The battlesuit represents considerable power, and in wielding that power, warriors have been known to forget the greater good and become obsessed with their own needs and desires. The example of O'shovah is an extreme one, but milder cases of battlesuit neurosis are more common than is realized. It is for this reason that the Ethereal caste limits the supply of battlesuits to ensure they are only issued to those who have proven themselves worthy."

So what exactly does this mean? To me this means that the condition basically makes the Battlesuit wearer begin developing very un-Tau like qualities; mainly being a selfish, self centered outlook. But it seems to indicate that only a weak-minded or weak-willed individual would fall victim to it, since it says that suits are given only to those who have proven themselves worthy.

But what causes this to occur? Is it spending too much time in the suit or does it just have to do strictly with the individual inside? Can it be cured?

I don't have any 40K novels and I would just be interested in knowing this as I write the fluff for my Cadre. Long story short, they have been forced to constantly fight against Tyranid; cut off from the Empire. This of course means that fighting is constant and fierce, with little chance of reinforcements. I plan to have the Shas'O, the hero of all the Shas under his command, begin to develop Battlesuit Neurosis. The Aun of the Cadre knows that this would prove disastrous for the moral of the troops if this is revealed, so there is an attempt by both the Shas'O and other senior members of the Cadre to cover it up, while still utilizing him as the hero he needs to be.

Any help would be appreciated!

That's about spot on. Battlesuit Neurosis, from what we know, afflicts those Tau with a weak willpower in many different ways.

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Well, it's likely caused by a combination of circumstances.

Being in a battlesuit for protracted periods of time, especially with the neural interface, might exponentially increase the risk of mental/psychological trauma - as the wearer might actually begin to get a bit too comfortable in his/her "new self".

Tau like these who spend that much time in their battlesuits are at a much higher risk of being diagnosed with an advanced form of battlesuit neurosis (or Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder) called the "Ho'or-ata-t'chel", or Sympathetic Ghost Pains (described in Fire Warrior). These are caused by the mind forgetting which body (the flesh, or the metal?) is the real body, mixed with external physical trauma, resulting in veteran Shas'vre going into a coma after their optical sensor cluster "heads" are damaged in battle, not understanding why they're perfectly capable of walking despite taking a round in their battlesuit leg, or actually trying to fly.

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The individual inside would also be an enormous factor. Tau who already show lack of faith or discipline would be, for the most part, ruled out as battlesuit pilot candidates - "stuck" permanently as Shas'ui Infantry/Pathfinder Squad Leaders. Those Tau who do make it through XV8 Training, despite mental flaws or quirks deemed questionable, would be at great risk of developing neurosis and watched like a hawk by the Fio.

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Regarding cures, I'd imagine that yes, it would be possible.

Tau are extremely advanced in the realms of technology and medicine, and using hypnotherapy techniques all Tau go through as children, coupled with the didactic memory implants all Tau have, I'd imagine Fio have developed very clever techniques for treating Battlesuit Neurosis or Post-Traumatic Stress Disorders such as the Ho'or-ata-t'chel.

There are book references to this, but I don't know about any of those references. We did have a talk about what its like, and what causes it, and we as a group (maybe it was in TO) fractured into two camps. I'll try to recall some of the interesting points:

The two camps differ on a certain point: does the pilot of a Crisis suit sit in a cockpit with a bunch of screens and controls, like mechwarrior? Or is the pilot encased in a cocoon, and neurally connected directly to the Suits sensors, and controls the suit directly? (I'm of the 'cocoon' neural plug in camp)

So, if he controls it directly, then Battlesuit psychosis is when he cant differentiate the different realities of when hes in a suit, and when hes out of it. He will wonder why suddenly he cant fly, and why when he points his right arm and makes a fist the plasma rifle doesnt go off. Its a Psychosis because he really doesnt know why he isnt a XV8 Crisis Suit when he is walking around. As he is lost in this dementia, he will indeed think that he is utterly heroic, and worth more than the other firewarriors, and even the Ethereal.. because.. the Ethereal cant DO the things that HE can do, can he?? ...and it all falls apart from there.

The other Camp sees it somewhat like this:
He is not 'lost in the Suit', since the Suit is just a vehicle he drives. But he gets all... I guess the only word for it is RAMBO, where he gets a bit too much joy out of melting space marines in their Terminator armor (I plead guilty to that!), and he turns more and more into a "Top Gun" flashy showoff..... which in its way, is a 'psychosis' when taken into acount with the Greater Good philosophy, and he starts to again place himself before all others, instead of working FOR all the others. This 'non team player psychosis' is why he is put into therapy for his illness.

(I never liked that view, for two reasons: It made crisis pilots out to be corrupted as chaos berserkers... and it added to the 'conspiracy' Big Brother of "what the Ethereals are REALLY up to, in the way they set up their empire")

Hope that helped a bit! I recall now, I had a thread in TO called something like "battlesuit psychosis in the farsight enclaves".. trying to talk about how the Farsight enclaves are now a Suit heavy power; how would the lack of ethereals, and the high number of crisis suit pilots.. handle battlesuit psychosis?? Would they embrace it as a warrior spirit?? Would there be burnouts in the alleyways twitching and suffering through the "XVs"?? it was all intereting questions, but things sorta died discussionwise...oh well.

See, Calaban, there is no real fracture anymore.

Fire Warrior makes it painfully clear that the Battlesuits are controlled in a combination of the two ways - not just one or the other.

See the XV8 Thread for reference to the following statements.

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As per the Fire Warrior novel, pilots get into the torso of the suit, clamp into padded braces, and get stuck with a neural interface needle. The neural interface essentially cuts the Tau's body off from the neck down, directly routing commands to appropriate areas of the XV8's mechanical armature. The head remains consciously alert inside the suit, watching a HUD display.

This feature, it can be argued, is implemented as a possible designed barrier to prevent Neurosis from forming - the pilot's brain isn't just controlling a mechanical body, it's controlling an exoskeleton around a conscious organism in its heart.

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Regarding the Farsight Psychosis Thread over at TO, I believe I was one of the responses to that, saying that a lot of factors would be involved. The more time spent inside the suit (at a time, or overall) increases the likeliness of both developing Battlesuit Neurosis, and the Ghost Pains in the event of trauma.

Wow, these are some great responses; thanks so much! But that leads me to some other questions.

How would this all affect the sufferer on the battlefield?

At first it would seem that letting them stay in the suit would not necessarily become a bad thing if the Battlesuit is needed. But I guess this would begin to affect their tactical decision making.

For example, a squad of Firewarriors is struggling to fight off a horde of Gaunts in hand to hand. An XV8 jumping in to take the heat off would help, but instead the suffering pilot decides to charge heroically at the approaching Warriors, feeling that if they he has more important things to do.

I imagine that the suffering pilot is easily frustrated by the limits of others. Because his Firewarriors or Pathfinders can't move at his pace or perform the same role as his suit can, he would be quick to dismiss them as unimportant or at least, less then himself.

Does it seem plausible that the sufferer would be quick to take offense if he didn't get praise and recognition for his "heroic" actions?

Very likely, Wolfs.

Tau normally wouldn't care for praise - they're just doing their duty, after all.

Tau suffering from Neurosis/Psychosis, however, start to feel empowered, selfish, and much more important than others - a real insult to the Tau'va. They would feed off praise, hold grudges or blame others, become antisocial, arrogant, or emotional, and doubt orders from superiors. They would likely spend many decs in the Battledome Simulators training to be the best, not realizing (or simply not caring) that they're putting themselves at extreme risk of crossing the line into the Ho'or-ata-t'chel - becoming the suit (or at least thinking you are).

Probably why many of those who are "cured" begin piloting Soul Cleanse configurations - making up for such thoughts and actions by volunteering for the most dangerous duties...

Or are they? *Cue Mystery Music and Conspiracy Theorists on Fio Mind Controlling Neurosis Sufferers into Killing Themselves Off*

I personally believe that it can take many different forms. Obviously it would include some personality disorders, but that's a given. I think that there might be other problems than just being self-important. For example in my story one of the characters, Y'kar'rashi, has neurosis. His primary problem is that to a certain extent he does 'become' his suit. He was already claustraphobic and now that he is twice his normal size everything seems even smaller. Or another one, one of my characters (I WILL NOT SAY WHO!) has begun to develope a second 'personality' that is his suit. I could go on as I will eventually have nine characters with the problem in varying minor degrees. It fits the whole Savagestrike deal if you ask me.

yeah I forgot about the 'ghost pains'... where the pilot feels it when the Crisis leg gets blown off, and from then on, his leg hurts - even when he is out of the suit.

But I still think there are two camps:
-One problem is a mental psychosis (percieving things that are simply false) [call him IronMan)

-The other problem is more an 'attitude' problem. [cal him HotShot]

In both cases, the crisis pilot would seem to inevitably become an excellent warrior. IronMan locks on to targets as easilly as locking eyes on, and shoots as accurately as pointing a finger, and floats and balances perfectly on his JetPack thrusters. His Suit could do kung fu if he wanted. HotShot is just really really skilled, through insane amounts of training and and obsession on perfection.

IronMan would not be a detriment to the Tau'Va or the battlefield, but there would be a concern, if only for his Personal Good, and thus he would be treated and given therapy.

HotShot is nothing but trouble. He would be like... hmm all those action moviestars.. Die Hards' McLane, TopGuns Maverick, Army of Darkness' Ash, from housewares, etc. Its that cliche'd action movie conversation:

"HotShot, you hold the line, we must keep those tanks from crossing that bridge!"
"don't worry 'El, I think I can take those dreadnaughts up on the hill!!"
"don't YOU DO IT!!"
"look at me!! heeey... Im HotShot!!!"
" your DUTY is to.."
"No prob- I'll be right back!"

... HE is in trouble, assuming he survives the battle... no mistake. Yu can bet that if he EVER gets back in a suit EVER again... it will be equipped with Fusion, Flamer, Shield Gen!!

I was thinking about this (and this is slightly off the original topic) and it made me think of the Orca/Manta.

The suits in those dropships are horribly cramped and pretty much just 'stored' like equipment, at a very awkward angle (hunched over, squatting, knees bent). And there are guys inside! That must be a terribly uncomfortable position if the wearer 'feels' what his suit feels. Now I'm sure they can shut that off, or just shut off the neural interface until it's time to jump, but then consider that most flights in a dropship (a manta especially) are going to be very long, upwards of 3 or 4 hours even, maybe more.

So considering all that... what do they DO in those suits all that time? Shas'las atleast get a nice, comfy chair (well, it LOOKs comfy anyways), can turn to chat with their mates, and can stretch their legs, for Tau'Vas sake! I assume Gun Drones just sleep, but no one cares about them anyways (that, and they're robots). The guys inside the Devilfish/Hammerheads are doing whatever guys inside Devilfish/Hammerheads do (which I assume is play cards and drink while the drones are actually piloting the craft). Heck, even if they stowed Piranhas or Tetras, the pilots would have plenty fun just kind of rocking side to side, ducking their head, and making 'Vrrrrrrm, Vrrrrrrrrrm!" sounds.

But the poor Crisis/Broadside suits? Shoved in a dark little coffin

Thus, I propose the following theory:

They're playing built-in video games. Given the nature of the Fio caste that built/programed the suit, I'm convinced it's Tetris. It's a very Fioy/Tauy kinda game, if you think about it.

With this revelation in mind, we can conclude that, obviously, Tau suffering from Battlesuit Neurosis are the ones who don't play Tetris in their Battlesuits for whatever reason (malfunction, lack of skill, or just a distaste for the game, as crazy as that sounds). I mean those conditions, without any sort of stimulation (compared to what probably amounts to sensory overload in the field) would easily lead to a neurosis. Cripes, we even have a form of that today, we call it 'Cabin Fever' or 'Stir Crazy'.


So, to summise: Battlesuit Neurosis is caused by a lack of stimulation, brought on by refusal/inability to play Tetris.

I only need one Water Caste poster with a picture of giant blocks falling into place and a Fio giving a thumbs up with the caption "Remember Shas'ui, for the Greater Good and your own sanity, play your daily requirement of Tetris!" to cement this theory.

See, here's the thing. (Providing at least this first paragraph was serious... )

Sitting in the same position like that is uncomfortable to us organic beings because of lack of blood flow, build up of lactic acid (or the Tau equivalent), and unstimulated nerve endings.

XV8 Crisis Battlesuits don't have any of those things, so whatever sensory equipment the XV8 Drone Intelligence relays to the Tau inside through the neural interface wouldn't be remotely uncomfortable for the pilot. They're essentially sentient machines - not hindered by any of the things us organic meatbags are hindered by...

By the way, an XV8 pilot can just as easily talk to the other Shas in the Orca as a Shas'la on the bench. He has a swiveling optical/sensor cluster, audio amplifiers (fancy speakers) for use in communicating to external beings without radios, and a nice set of sensors for hearing things. He may not be able to stretch - but we've established he doesn't need to in the first place...

@ Alex; Hmm, so if I hate Tetris, that must mean I would make a great Soul Cleanse pilot! Although, suicide isn't really my thing (maybe emo Tau would like it? Hey Shas'la, instead of wearing out your bonding knife on the wrists, and crying about how bad it is to be meatbags around the markerlight, go out with a bang!)

@ DB; OT, I think Crisis pilots wouldn't be in their suits unless they were about to be combat-dropped into a battlefield. While the neural link probably does all you say, their bodies still exist, and still suffer all the same effects even if the pilot isn't aware. Once you disengage the link and hop out, all the acid buildup/muscle cramps could kill you (like when people get trapped between to objects, all the poisons collect in their legs, and when you pull them out it goes straight to their heart and kills them). So because of that, I think that pilots would maybe sit in one of the seats with the other Shas'la, socialising.

Doubt it, Taipan.

Anyone who's ever been in the military (specifically aviation) knows that it often takes quite a bit of time to "set up" or "preflight" the machinery you're going into battle with - at which point you're pretty much just standing by, entirely geared up and ready for the split-second order to deploy.

The XV8 Operators might likely be in their suits awaiting that order for many minutes/hours - but who's to say the body inside will really be feeling any discomfort at all? Just because we humans experience discomfort in a position like I've illustrated doesn't mean a Tau's unique anatomy will react in the same way.

For all we know, the neural interface's drone intelligence might simply command the Tau's organic brain to impede any lactic acid (or Tau equivalient) build-up.

How do we even know they're in the suits the entire ride. It's pretty reasonable that they suit up mabey twenty minutes before the drop. The position the suit is in is probably the default position for an unmanned suit as well as drop position. The way they're in there could easily be because the pilots are waiting for mouting up. It'd be a tight sqeeze between the suits but still if the rest of gw is out of scale anyway why would that be suprising.

Also how many men are in a cadre because on manta can supposedly carry and entire cadre to the LZ and the mabey 50-60 guys including B-suits and tank crews I thought a cadre was a company to battalion sized unit say 120-400 idk. If this is true looks like Forgeworld made it too small

We don't know for certain if the pilots are in the suits for the entire ride - it just seems quite likely (to me, at least) that anything and everything loaded into a Manta Dropship headed planetside is combat ready at all times, just in case.

I retract my example of using human aviation (or human anything, for that matter) as a means to describe how long a Tau might take to prep his suit for battle. In Kill Team, I now recall that Brightsword and his entourage were inside the armory, and back out in their XV8s in less than a minute.

Regardless, If you can fit six suits in an Orca, saying the pilots wouldn't be inside those for the duration of the flight is impractical, as that's now six less Line Warriors per ship on the battlefield - not to mention the impossibility of the XV8 chassis opening in such close quarters.

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We know that the Manta is slightly out of scale (just like everything else, you're right), but the numbers for a Cadre-sized detachment of Tau remain fixed at approximately 50-100 persons, depending on the Cadre.

Certain Cadres (like the Armoured Interdiction Force) are comprised of much fewer Tau (~12 for four tanks), while balanced Fury Configuration Cadres (like that shown in the Codex) number at roughly 75.

I thought that the entire Tau was situated inside the main body of the suit (a reason why having phantom pains because of suit leg loss is possible instead of the actual pains they would have if their leg inside it got blown off).

the joke of playing games may be more true then you thought running through a virtual combat simulation of what he is supposed to do in the battle plan and going over terrain maps and intelligence information before a battle sounds very Tau.

They must deploy close to a thousand cadres in a conflict then. I always assumed a cadre was more numerous since a cadre can take on a several squads of space marines and come out on top. 60 tau versus 30 marines makes us look good. It'd take a thousand gue'la to do the same.

I didn't realise how elite our troops must be. I assumed that they were crack infantry but a cadre that can take on 30 odd marines plus (according to IA Taros) makes us nearly the equal of humanities finest. Our battlesuits must be unstoppable if our unsuited warriors can do so much. This calls for a Kalamandi style poster. I'll start that soon.

Honestly depends on the conflict there, Lone Ranger. Besides, not all Cadres adhere to such stringent population caps, the 50-100(-150) is simply an average.

If I recall correctly, there were roughly eighty cadres deployed to T'ros, and many more than one were used in the first engagement at the Governor's Building. The Tau involved in that attack were supported by Mantas ferrying the wounded back to the Tau's headquarters and bringing reinforcements back to the line - including Tau Armored Support.

You also need to take into consideration the fact that Space Marines on the tabletop are horrendously underpowered compared to their fluffy brethren.

There was actually a set of rules posted in a White Dwarf (and I think online as well) a couple of months ago. I can't seem to find them, but if anyone can post a link to them here, you'll see that "Movie Marines" are far more powerful.

If anything, I'd imagine a more fluffy Space Marine is roughly the equal of a Battlesuit-Armored Shas'ui or Shas'vre.

Our fluffy Shas'la and Shas'ui Line Warriors are roughly the equal of the Imperium's finer Guardsmen or Storm Troopers.

Sorry to take this a bit further off topic, but I've been mulling over this very subject for some time. Something to keep in mind is that Tau cadres extensively supplement their strength with drones and artificial intelligence.

The Tau really are outnumbered in this universe; in terms of men, they can't hold the vast hive worlds of the Imperium. But their fewer numbers don't effect their ability on the battlefield.

I agree. While many discredit the ability of the Tau to compete with any of the other races, I believe the usage of drone intelligence is one of greatest strengths.

What race could possibly say the same?

The Imperium is simply too superstitious/incompetent to field vast amounts of AI (ironic considering some more automated systems could possibly help them organize their vast manpower).

The Eldar, for one reason or another, prefer there own limited forces without the reliance on AI. They have a problem even relying on their dead and despite the incredible time advantage of the Eldar, their technology has not advanced for one reason or another.

The Orks and Tyranids are biological first and foremost. An Ork would prefer to do the crumpin' himeself.

The Necron, older than the Eldar perhaps, are perhaps the only race as comfortable with the deployment AND evolution of their own technology. That said, their motives are so "alien" to the other races, the Tau are merely another obstacle among many given the same amount of attention any other living organism would gather.

Meanwhile, despite the vast material resources required, the Tau are by far the most comfortable with their technology and the development.

This is our only advantage and I fully believe it is deployed as much as possible.

We can't match the sheer manpower of the other races, and only through adaptation can we compete (i.e. survive) with the more technological ones.

For every Gaurdsman, the Fio are pumping out as many Drones as the forges will allow. It's the only way we can compete and I'm confident the Tau as a race are aware of this.

It's sad the fluff doesn't allude to his more. While we are, of course, actively recruiting any and all friendly races within our spheres, the heavy deployment of Drone intelligence should be emphasized.

Taking a look at any side material supports the importance of AI to the Tau. Example: Any Imperial Armor book has numerous new Drone-based arms ranging from Sensor towers to Sentry Turrets.

In terms of a "fluffy" army list, Gun Drones would outnumber Fire Warriors IMO. As well they should, for the blood of our blue brothers is far more valuable than our replaceable and faithful servants.

If I remember right, the reason for this was a massive AI rebellion before the formation of the imperium Iron man or something rebelled and had a massively horrific war, a pretty good reason to be paranoid really.