So the pilot would still feel pain if his body was damaged but he would not be able to control his body, since his brain would be busy controlling the suit? Also, I notice that XV8s and 88s are very different from the other suits. The stealth suits and the XV22 look like suits of armor rather than mechas requiring pilots. Same system? Same disease?

Now that I think about it, the pilot probably wouldn't feel the pain in an XV8, per se - but he would be aware of his own injuries through the suit's AI monitoring and the stimulant injectors could still be used to keep his organic body alive until proper Fio doctors could repair the damage.

Regarding XV22s, 25s, and 15s, yes, they're just as afflicted by Neurosis as everyone else, even though they still retain the feeling and control of their extremities as the smaller, exoskeletal battlesuit responds to a mixed combination of the movements of the wearer and their mind, not strictly their thoughts alone.

That works, given that the "Feel No Pain" ability conferred by stimulant injectors is not so much about the actual sensation of pain as it is about the ability to keep fighting in spite of being wounded.

As to the difference between the suits: there goes my idea that Shadowsun is using a XV22 to stave off the mind-damaging effects that potentially contributed to Shovah's personality change.

Well, that's entirely possible, Manchu.

I think actually developing 'Battlesuit Neurosis' mainly has to do with the rather humbling psycho-conditioning into the Tau'va, mixed with the enhanced sense of freedom and power granted by the neural interface and the right to wield a powerful battlesuit.

Given the fact that both XVs and Kor Aircraft use a neural interface, I think it's safe to assume that such electroencephalographic interfaces are rather common in the Empire. I'd imagine Hammerhead drivers might get a similar feeling of empowerment, and might be at risk for similar neurosis.

This, of course, might also be curbed by the fact that the Hammerhead driver is working alongside two other Tau in the same vehicle. Given there is no real mention (to my knowledge) of Kor Barracuda/Tigershark pilots developing neurosis, it may also have more to do with the level of invasion - meaning XV15, 22, and 25 operators might actually be at less risk of developing the affliction.

Considerably more risk than that of a Hammerhead or 'Cuda driver, but less than an XV8 driver.

Very good point about neural links being pretty common. I hadn't thought that Hammerhead crews or Kor'la would be hooked up to their machines--thinking they would work more like human tanks and planes.

Well, when you're traveling through the sky/space at 2100kph and pulling 11Gs, it might be a little easier on you if you had all your sensory input sent straight to your ocular lobe through neural interfaces, rather than having to physically reach out against gravity to punch buttons or keep your eyes focussed solely on the HUD.

I gotta say, I love the direction this little thread of mine has taken!



I think that is a really good point. The fact that piloting a suit is very different then piloting a tank or plane has a lot to do with developing this condition.

A good example I can think of is a normal human suddenly gaining Super Man like abilities. Sure you'd be altruistic in the beginning, but sooner or latter the desire to impress people by doing something heroic, or letting your anger get the best of you, would lead to its abuse.

I'm sure the first time a Shas'ui effortlessly blasts open a tank with his Fusion Blaster, it is a bit of a rush. Going from "weak" to "super powered" would be an adjustment for anyone. I guess a level of maturity is needed be a pilot, or at least a measure of self control.

So to me, it seems that personal choice plays a large part in developing the condition. One can choose to act arrogantly, or one can keep reminding themselves of the needs of the whole and focus his mind on his duties.

The article I referenced in my original post made the statement that mild forms of Neurosis are more common then most would think. Of course, the words "more common then most would think," leave it open to some interpretation. I'm sure that doesn't mean that 1 out of every 10 pilots starts developing symptoms, but maybe that is the case. Anyone know any statistics, or at least, some approximations?

Also, are all Shas aware of the possibility of developing this condition? I'm sure most Shas'la would love to have the privilege of piloting a Battlesuit, but are all Shas aware of the risks? Or is this something kept kind of hush hush so the illusion of Elite warriors is kept?

Shas would be kept aware of the inherent dangers of piloting a battlesuit. Fear and caution are useful tools when you're trying to exert control over another. Just as the Ethereals keep Tau vividly aware of the Mont'au and the dangers of turning from the One Path, Tau would be kept very aware of the causes, symptoms, and effects of Battlesuit Neurosis not only for the individual's safety but to. if anything, enhance the image of the Elite Warrior even more and help weed out the weak-willed Tau before they show up for screening and indoc.

I mean, they're literally walking the knife edge of power and temptation - only the Tau with the strongest willpower and most faith in the Tau'va could possibly hope to operate such an individually powerful and dangerous (to self and enemy) weapon.

BTW, Love the Super Mario example!

There is also the point that how the Crisis suit especially acts in combat as a lynch pin unit that goes about the battlefield saving the day when there is a problem could lead to the ego problem side.

And there is the similarity between a battlesuit and their bodies that could lead to the phantom pains and trying to fly part, it would be a lot easier to consider a battlesuit as your body since it is extremely similar in workings and shape to the pilots body then it would be for the driver of a tank or a plane.

Good points, all!

Very good reasoning, Gantrakk.

A Barracuda would likely be much more difficult to develop a dis-associative disorder with, considering it would be much different, in terms of function, purpose, and geometry - therefore easier for the brain to associate with something other than one's self entirely.

A Battlesuit, on the other hand, is essentially an extension or "alternate self" - which might be a good reason why Battlesuit Neurosis is the most widespread.

Not sure if it was brought up already: but there could be a simple, if a bit brutal 'technology' to make this work: Nerve Stapling.

So, how it works is: at the base of the skull, at the top of the spinal cord, the conections are severed completely, then a 'socket' is spliced in between, and the connection between mind and body is reconnected. This is called the staple. That staple has a 'disconnect' within it that mechanically cuts the body off when the plug is inserted. The plug-to-staple connection is standardized, so that any operator can operate any BattleSuit. However, each persons neuronal Spinal arrangement is unique, so the wiring up of the Brain-to-Staple is a complicated operation that has to be custom tuned to each individual person. In addition, the 'essential' life support neurons are permanently wired through the staple, and can never be disconnected (heart, lungs, lymph systems), while other, in-head functions, would be detoured to run through the Staple (a good example is the sense of balance of the inner ear, that would have to be routed to the Suits balancing gyros)

This fits nicely with the fluff [that I havent read], that the Crisis control is a mix of direct bodilly control, But the pilots' head senses all work directly still, and the pilots head would have displays and microphones and all that. surrounding it.

So, with this functionality background, the pilot puts a big helmet on, and the helmet is linked to visual and audio sensors, many multifuctional displays and so on.. and at the rear base of the helmet is the plug, which connects to the Staple very much Matrix style. His actual body, can be balled up and cramped in whatever position is feasable by the Suits design. But its position doesnt really matter.

This sort of interface would be very confusing, especially with ghost limb and ghost jetpack factors. As the operator would be unable tell, at any given moment, if his spinal cord is connetced to the suit, or the rest of his body... One thing that would make the crisis piloting training effortless would be to make the crisis suit act entirely like the pilots body, in all respects.

But there are side consequences: when a Crisis arm gets blown off, how would you design the brain interface to represent that? Would you make it merely go numb? No, because the pilot may still try to use it. Would you simply disconnect the arm from the brain? NOOO that would immediately creep someone out, not getting sensory feedback of an arm they try to move. Would you 'abstract' the damage to the pilots perception.. meaning when the pilot tries to move a missing arm, he sees a red border effect on his viser? No, because it would take extensive training to reprogram the mind to know what that means in the heat of battle.

Unfortunately, the best way would be to simulate pain. As pain is the quickest path to action, and has been muscle memory trained in each of us since birth (notice how quick you pull your hand away when you accidentally touch the inside of an oven AND pull it away in just the right direction as well- so fast you rarely even get slightly burned by a 400 degree surface). So, pain sensors would be scattered throughout the suit, not only to register damage.. but also to keep the pilot 'honest': It would reduce wear and tear on the Battlesuit, if it actually HURT a little to jar the ankle joints too much on a banzai landing, or to bulldose through a brick building. Pain is important, and essential, if not pleasent. (if it felt good to smash our heads against a cave wall, we wouldnt be here today)

So, wow this is a long post.. but anyways: I think Nerve Stapling is the way to go, and unfortunately, ghost pain and ghost limbs are a part of the deal, by design. And eventually, over time and in brutal combat conditions, the Crisis Pilots heads will inevitably get messed up in a physiological point of view... never mind the ego and attitude problems that would develop when things don't go wrong... the pilot is in for a rough career.

Oh, and about things going wrong: remember when a crisis suit is killed, it doesnt necissarilly mean that the pilot was killed. Just that he was 'out of combat'.. which means the pilot could be laying there for hours or DAYS... feeling a ruined body, probably screaming "oh AUN oh AUN!!" and unable to unplug himself.... imagine waking up in a hospital bed later, with a fully functional body again... wow how could that not mess you up? [LOL Metallicas' One: "Landmine has taken my arms. taken my legs. taken my sight. taken my hear- oh wait a second, nevermind!]

I'd still get the operation and sign up, if it meant I could buzz around in a Crisis Suit however!!

I love the imagery that your theory conjures up.

Crisis suit punches through concrete wall "Oooow! Oooowww! Owww! He shouts as the pain courses up his mechanical arm. Waving his arm wildly in pain and the shouting alerts nearby enemies.

Mabey not the best idea but then again he shouldn't have punched the wall.

i would imagine that you could 'turn it off' when you need to break through a wall (a-la robocop) Either that or you get the indestructibility feeling from the fact that your a flying dreadnought- which would definitively be a factor in developing neurosis.

I don't know about the pain thing. I'd imagine the Tau would have fashioned a reasonably similar interface or feeling that you're destroying your own body armor, but not pain itself (or only pain in relatively extreme circumstances, like stepping into molten magma, sulfuric acid, or getting shot at). I doubt a Crisis operator would feel anywhere near hurt by simply punching a wall.

In Fire Warrior, El'Lusha had a pretty jarring landing (way harder than a normal one) during a hot drop out of a Manta, and it didn't mention pain at all even though he definitely realized what he was doing, and definitely felt himself make a small crater.

So yeah, touch/visual/aural/olfactory-sensors for being 100% aware of one's surroundings, pain-sensors for the unexpected, especially self-destructive occurrences, and certainly a way to turn it all off (to prevent that rather traumatizing situation that Calaban is describing from happening).

I must throw in a scientific fact. Pain is not what hurts. Pain is a pschological reaction to injurous stimuli. Thus scince the flesh would not be being injured no pain would be percieved. It would seem like just hitting something over the head with a rifle. It does not hurt because it is not you. The pilot would percieve the contact but it would be without the psychological reaction, it would be pain that does not hurt. Those with neurosis who become their suits, however; would feel very real pain as they would have a psychological reaction just the same as if they themselves were being hurt. Thus ghost-pains.

Thank you very much! I've spent the whole day trying to write exactly the same thing!

O2 I could hug you! So few people understand that. While I'm at it I'll throw in that pleasure is a pschological reaction to any stimuli.

Wow that is a COOL insight!! and a neat way to flip around the crazyness!

But with a nerve staple as I described above, its important to realize: the brain wont be able to tell if its inputs up the spinal chord are coming from his real body, or from the Crisis Suit. And then the crisis is plugged in, the rest of the body is physically disconnected, and no signals are coming from there. That complicates things quite a bit, doesnt it? I really wonder how the mind (not neceissarily the brain) would percieve all that Normally or Neurotically.

Would he have to learn a whole new way of feeling? Like a stroke victim learning how to walk again? Thats almost a certainty. But will that new way of learning preclude the natural previous way of walking? The Pilot would have to learn skills in to different 'modes' Tau mode and Crisis Mode. But the interesting part is: when developing control over his crisis body and learning its basic skills... will the pain perception come with it?

Its interesting to think about this sort of odd stuff. And I'd love to learn more of the details (but im certain any neurologist I ask would just look at me funny). I cant claim to know a lot about the mind and pain, but let me talk pain for a second, from my own experience:

The hot oven pain-instant reaction is almost subconscious, and I heard somewhere, that the 'flinch' reflex is a 'shortcut' from the pain sensors near-directly to the muscles associated with that body part.. like it happens in the spinal chord or animal part of the brain.. your hand is often off the oven before your conscious mind can be made aware of it.

But then theres the psychological controlled flinch (like when your skateboard stops on a pebble and your falling face first towards a rapidly moving street).. anticipating the imagined pain to come...

And then the Empathetic Pain: where you see someone get hit in the nuts so hard he lifts of the ground.. and it makes YOU squirm in discomfort (youre probably squirming now just reading about it)

Then, for funs' sake: theres the mystrious '2 pathways' of pain: specifically getting hit hard in da nuts: the initial pain that makes you go "WOA!! OW!!" but isnt too bad (maybe thats the psychological part?), and this initial shock of pain is manageable and gives you time to go sit down somewhere [yeah you know whats comin].. as the other pain slowly crawls up your spine. (anyone whos ever been nailed really hard knows what I'm talking about). Its like a wave of pudding... almost- I cant describe it any other way.. that you can actually percieve moving up your hips, into your stomach, making you nauseous, up your backbone, and right about when that wave of pudding hits the neck... you suddenly cant see the world around you anymore. (anyone else been there?), as the REAL pain hits you. (now is that the psychological effect of pain? or a genetic "DAMMIT don't LET THAT EVER HAPPEN AGAIN [break your arm next time if you have to!] form of super negative reinforcement, to ensure propagation of the species? )

[shudder] who else is squirming in their seats right now?? happy holidays!

But back to the Crisis interface, and punching a brick wall: there would need to be a feedback, a sensation. For the pilot to know where his arms, hands and fingers are at any given moment. Not actual injurious pain, but common feedback signals that we get all the time (try bending your elbow the wrong way.. its not really pain that stops you, but there is a definate signal saying "no more!"). But lets talk fingers. The Crisis pilot has fingers in the arms which may be used for ay number of things. But these fingers have a certain range of motion, that the pilot should feel as 'ok, tendons getting tight, cant move that finger up any farther'.. as that is the feedback signals he gets in his everyday life to keep his own fingers from tearing off. Now, as the fingers on the Crisis suit gets mangled from punching through a brick wall... the fingers get wrecked... and wont move at all anymore. Or bind up here and there as they try to move. How should the pilot feel that situation? Certainly not agonizing "ow I just broke all my fingers like an idiot!" pain, but certainly the sensation of "ooh! thats unpleasant! guess those fingers aint moving anymore" to some degree.

This is interesting stuff!

Genetically incoded reflexes such as the 'pull away that's hot' are stored in the spinal cord. It is also possible to program in new ones. I automatically shoot a squirrel if it runs past me and I'm hungry. I rarely even have time to brace for the noise. I shoot before the signal hits my brain.

As to the hit in the nuts, I would say that it has to do with the fact that right after your hit your body goes into an 'alert' state. Kinda like an adrenalen rush, but more psychological than physiological. Then your brain lets you get the full impact of what has just happened. The "parts" are very high priority from birth thus attaching incredible subconsious value and attachment. After the 'rush' is over the body slows down and lets you feel the crippleing pain that has to do with possibly having testicular damage. After all I know some guys who feel their legs throb and their knees buckle instead of getting nauseus and dizzy.

As to the other stuff and how it would go from percived stimuli to pain I cannot properly describe. It may have something to do with how a person can be trained to 'shut out' pain. I can get hit in the head with a two by four and never feel any 'pain' from it, just the perception that I have suffered an unsafe blunt trauma.

P.S. I am a bit of an exception to the rules, I have been trained for combat from a fairly young age of my own volition. I cannot even think like a normal human any more. When I meet a girl and start to check her out the first thing I do before trying not to start flirting beyond my control is to guage the threat level.

I too have an odd pain-thing: my knees hurt.

And I mean a LOT. The creak, they pop, and generally keep my personal pain level hovering permanently around 3 on a 1-10 scale. Theyre aching right now, sitting on the couch... feels a lot like when you chomp down on the inside of your cheek, and hold it. Forever.

What this means is, when I get banged up at work (like not ducking low enough under a steel beam), and then don't even wince someone inevitably asks me "didnt that hurt?" and I reply "I guess so, but its nothing compared to my knees".

And I can have a little fun with it. For instance: in my apartment compelx's pool, I'm known as the "Nestea Plunge guy" Because I can do it, and wont even really feel any discomfort (red back and all). For those too young to know the commercial I'm talking about; its when you stand on the edge of a pool, with your back to it, arms out, and just fall back staying nice and straight.... SLAP!! Its always good for a gasp or laugh. When asked "doesnt it sting?" I honestly state that it just tingles a bit.

If I could psychologicalize [new word] it away, then by all means I'd like to learn more about it!

But if I could afford the surgery to get my knees fixed, I probably would start huting myself a lot, but I think the euphoria of living at pain level 0 would make up for it. Pain is a weird thing.