GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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SomeTauGuy
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GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#1 » Jul 14 2017 07:59

So with the moving of the original thread into Academy articles I thought I'd open the discussion here for further suggestions and request for features on

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2


Recent updates:
Iron-Fist wrote:Could you add a Coldstrike Commander w/ ATS to the breakdown? ATS feels like standard equipment for them. Thanks!

Done!

Boomwolf wrote:Sometauguy, may I advise that you will change the sorting algorithem so that when looking at a specific targets at range, Null values (things that can't shoot as they lack range) will be at the bottom rather than the top?

Done!

Also added Kroot, Ghostkeels and the Manta Super Heavy Dropship to the table.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

Sheeb
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#2 » Jul 14 2017 09:28

I am so lost on how to read this. What do the number represent? Chance of hitting? Of doing damage? If so how much?

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boomwolf
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#3 » Jul 14 2017 09:30

Of all things, you chose to make a manta for your list XD

Even if you OWN one the model is hardly relevant to the game, and if only taken as "because I can" situations with supersized games, never a serious concern XD



Why not pile up the common crisis setups before that?
Yaknow, x3 of each gun, and x2/ATS

Commander is USUSALLY better, but knowing where the crisis stands is important.


Also, ionkeeel with ATS is a good edition, as its probably going to be a common pick for it.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#4 » Jul 15 2017 03:04

Sheeb wrote:I am so lost on how to read this. What do the number represent? Chance of hitting? Of doing damage? If so how much?

Have you seen the movie Moneyball? Its a story about a general manager of a baseball team using statistics and some math to look for undervalued players in the league. For a given role in the team, he is looking to spend the least amount of dollars, in order to maximise the chance of succeeding. He's looking for value for money in his players.

Using PPW (Points Per Wound) you can do the table top wargaming equivalent. There is an explanation and discussion of the math here.

The table Tau PPW gives you an indication of the cost (in points) for a given unit to take a wound off a target, at a given range. In other words, its efficiency against that target at that range. The lower the points cost the better.

The numbers aren't a guarantee of success or a certain number of wounds but they are a way to compare various units' effectiveness and through that you can (hopefully) make better unit selection for your army.

boomwolf wrote:Why not pile up the common crisis setups before that?
Yaknow, x3 of each gun, and x2/ATS

Done! For Crisis teams and Commanders.

boomwolf wrote:ionkeeel with ATS is a good edition

Done!

Also added Velocity Tracker functionality, Commander Units equipped with them, and Stormtalon Gunships (hovering and flying) as targets.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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boomwolf
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#5 » Jul 15 2017 05:54

Well, more FW units?

Hammerheads are a good idea to compare to "GW" hammerheads.


A set of toggleable "unit moves", "target in cover", etc modifier would probably take a while to code and properly update the guns to consider (what guns are heavy and what are not, etc)-but could be worth it.

Jorthax
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#6 » Jul 16 2017 04:45

Hey SomeTauGuy, I'd like to second the request for the FW Hammerheads, as I think the Burstcannon variant with Longstrike buff would be amazing for anti horde... it seems to have an obscene number of Str5/Str6 -1 shots...

Thanks in advance :smile:

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nic
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#7 » Jul 17 2017 02:11

If you are taking suggestions - how about the XV9 variants?

Back-of-the-envelope maths suggests that both the Burst Cannon and Fusion Cascade versions perform better than their XV8 counterparts. Having a spare slot to take a support system also helps for both options.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#8 » Jul 18 2017 10:32

boomwolf wrote:Hammerheads are a good idea to compare to "GW" hammerheads.

Done!

nic wrote:...how about the XV9 variants?

Added in most of them (Phased Ion Guns will need a bit more work to model)

boomwolf wrote:A set of toggleable "unit moves", "target in cover", etc modifier would probably take a while to code and properly update the guns to consider (what guns are heavy and what are not, etc)-but could be worth it.

Done!

Added min sized squads of pathfinders with Ion Rifles and Rail Rifles (they are amazingly efficient versus TEQs).
Added FW Tiger Shark.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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boomwolf
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#9 » Jul 19 2017 12:06

Going into nitpicking here, but SMS build FW hammerheads could be useful.

Also Ralai could be nice. I don't expect much of him in raw firepower, but I'd like to know what I could expect.

The XV107, and piranha (both codex and FW variations) would be a nice add.

Drone sentries with and without a controller present could be meaningful information...



Next toggleable options I think you should add are markerlight effects (reroll 1 and BS boost), drone controller BS boost and the likes. they don't count in the original unit's cost per-say, but these interactions also provide useful information.

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nic
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#10 » Jul 19 2017 12:52

SomeTauGuy wrote:
nic wrote:...how about the XV9 variants?

Added in most of them (Phased Ion Guns will need a bit more work to model)



Nice work. You might want to look at the VT, I do not think that is affecting the outcomes as it should.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#11 » Jul 24 2017 03:40

boomwolf wrote:Going into nitpicking here, but SMS build FW hammerheads could be useful.
Also Ralai could be nice. I don't expect much of him in raw firepower, but I'd like to know what I could expect.
The XV107, and piranha (both codex and FW variations) would be a nice add.
Drone sentries with and without a controller present could be meaningful information...

All done.

boomwolf wrote:Next toggleable options I think you should add are markerlight effects (reroll 1 and BS boost), drone controller BS boost and the likes. they don't count in the original unit's cost per-say, but these interactions also provide useful information.

Added buttons for reroll 1's, reroll all misses, +1 BS and target getting no cover.
I've added drone controller functionality but not as a button but rather as specific combinations of units as the controller should be factored into efficiency.
nic wrote:Nice work. You might want to look at the VT, I do not think that is affecting the outcomes as it should.

I'm pretty sure its factoring in the VT. I added a non VT entry for the Fusion Cascade XV9 to highlight the difference.

Also added anchored entries for the Stormsurge and some other stuff that has nothing to do with Tau :crafty:

http://www.grimdarkmath.com/show/ppw/tau/2
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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boomwolf
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#12 » Jul 24 2017 03:58

Target getting no cover is rather silly, considering you can just not activate the cover toggle.


And Ralai is even worse than I expected, and that makes me sad :(

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#13 » Jul 24 2017 04:30

boomwolf wrote:And Ralai is even worse than I expected, and that makes me sad :(

The PPW numbers only represent the units potential damage output against various targets. It doesn't represent any of the unit's ability to absorb damage and keep the enemy busy and R'alai is pretty tough for a commander model (T6, W8, 3++ over 12") so his value might lie in a slightly different role compared to the quad fusion toting Commanders that are in vogue.

If anything my only complaint about him is he can't take a Drone Controller as that would make him and his drones great at mid field support! (hoping GW read these forums...)
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Atzilla
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#14 » Jul 24 2017 04:50

A Forgeworld on/off switch would be appreciated.

Great work so far :)

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boomwolf
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#15 » Jul 24 2017 05:01

SomeTauGuy wrote:
boomwolf wrote:And Ralai is even worse than I expected, and that makes me sad :(

The PPW numbers only represent the units potential damage output against various targets. It doesn't represent any of the unit's ability to absorb damage and keep the enemy busy and R'alai is pretty tough for a commander model (T6, W8, 3++ over 12") so his value might lie in a slightly different role compared to the quad fusion toting Commanders that are in vogue.

If anything my only complaint about him is he can't take a Drone Controller as that would make him and his drones great at mid field support! (hoping GW read these forums...)



He has a drone controller as per the FAQ. and drone costs fixed, in cast you counted them in your table.

Still, that big fancy cannon, and nothing he's actually good at killing :\

He's not BAD, just not really good. characters are hard to target in 8th, so being tanky is not worth as much as before.
No need to hide him, as nobody will bother shooting him. especially when he isn't at all dangerous.

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SomeTauGuy
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#16 » Jul 25 2017 10:51

boomwolf wrote:He has a drone controller as per the FAQ. and drone costs fixed, in cast you counted them in your table.

I totally forgot to look at the FAQ! He should be up to date now.

Atzilla wrote:A Forgeworld on/off switch would be appreciated.

Done!

Added total points cost to the table as well.

Fixed the Stormsurge's cost - it was counting the base cost of the model twice.
'Cause I'm a sucker for applying math to things - http://www.grimdarkmath.com

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Atzilla
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#17 » Jul 29 2017 05:13

Nicely done!

Finghain
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Re: GrimDarkMath - Suggestions and requests

Post#18 » Jul 29 2017 06:17

Hey, great resource, keep up the good work :)

One thing I'd like to see are TEQ with Storm Shield (T4 2+/3++ with 2W) and possibly MEQ with SS as well (T4 3+/3++ with 1W and multiple Wounds for Characters). Although your list is getting quite large. I don't know if that is possible, but maybe add a row where you can input T/AS/INV/W yourself? You can't really add every combination that is out there, and maybe someone wants to, I don't know, figure out how to most effectively kill some special character, like, let's call him Gullyman, that doesn't have an equivalent in your current list and maybe isn't common enough to warrant a special entry.

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