XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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555ea
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XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#1 » Jun 03 2017 02:42

On the one hand, they are expensive as hell, on the other hand, HRR is finally usable.

The cheapest possible build is HRR+2plasma = 165 points. Which is cheaper than a single Railhead (171point), given that there are two rail shots, plus we have 2 more plasma, against drones that are not capable of anything. That's right, HRR is better in everything except T5, which we wound by 3+, instead of 2+, and T8, which is wounded by 4+.

Another funny thing is rocket drones. Yes, they cost 20 points, it seems expensive. But one missile pod costs more, 24. So the broadside with drone controller has a place to be, except that you can only take 2 drones per unit, I hope this will be FAQed, otherwise, the drones as a separate unit, need a spare wound in the form of gun \ shield drone.

Let's do maths. 3 units of broadsides vs 3 hammerheads with a Longstrike. XV88s are cheaper by +- 50 points.

T7 Sv3+ target in 24"
XV88 = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.67 (t7) * 3.5 (avgD6) = 7.04 + 6 * 0.5 * 0.17 (mortal) = 7.04 + 0.51 = 7.55 wounds.
plasma = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.5 (t7) * 0.83 (6+ sv) = 1.24 wounds.
7.55 + 1.24 = 8.79 wounds.

HH = 3 * 0.83 (bs2+) = 2.49, 1.66 * 0.67 (t7) + 0.83 * 0.83 (t7 + tank ace) = (1.12 + 0.69) * 3.5 (avgD6) = 6.34 + 3 * 0.83 * 0.17 (mortal) * 2 (avg d3) = 6.34 + 0.85 = 7.19 wounds.

Conclusion - XV88 pack more punch, even without markerlights \ Kauyoun. Considering their BS is the bottleneck, their firepower with a kayoun will be increased by 25% resulting in about 11 wounds. HHs with their BS can't benefit from markerlights that much.

HHs are more mobile, but as Heavy weapons are -1bs both will need 4MLs to fire without a penalty.

HHs are T7 W13 3+ vs T5 W6 2+, but XV88s are Battlesuits and are saved by drones.

Last, but not least, how cover modifies 2+ armor? If it's not, you can place broadsides in the open, while you should hide HHs in some cover restricting their LOS.
Last edited by 555ea on Jun 03 2017 04:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Pyropower
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#2 » Jun 03 2017 03:33

So cover will come into effect when you get hit by a weapon with AP -1 or more by reducing its effect on your save

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Bloodknife92
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#3 » Jun 03 2017 03:41

How on earth did you get an average roll on a D6? It is literally impossible to roll an average on a D6, as there's equal chance of rolling every side....
The days of goodly English is went
Ziss old dog still has a few tricks!

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#4 » Jun 03 2017 03:47

Bloodknife92 wrote:How on earth did you get an average roll on a D6? It is literally impossible to roll an average on a D6, as there's equal chance of rolling every side....

^ this
Also if anything it would've been 3.5 since the average of 2d6 would be 7, no?

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boomwolf
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#5 » Jun 03 2017 03:48

It's really easy to average a d6, but the result is 3.5, not 2.67.
No idea where he got that number.

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#6 » Jun 03 2017 04:07

Oops, you are right, I don't know why, but I wrongly remembered that (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 is 2.67, but it's 3.5.

Updated the "charts".

What do you think of it at all? It's a 1/4 of a 2000 list, considering 3 broadsides cost 495 points :?

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Elphiel
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#7 » Jun 03 2017 04:55

In my opinion the new Railgun mechanics and stats are not the buff we hoped for. One crucial reason for HYMP in the 7th edition was also, the reliability of wounds due to number of shots. Its like the Railhead/Ionhead comparison.

Ok the new Railgun isn't anymore that unreliable in pening and damaging high armoured or in the new edition high toughness targets with good save. But it still has a low amount of shots and worst of all, the actual damage inflicted by these shots is highly random. With a low amount of shots and a high damage variability it makes the Broadsides and Railheads unreliably and their use a constant gamble.

So from my point of view, the whole mathhammer comparison lacks any reliability because of that huge random factor of D6 damage.
Taking a look at the whole weapon range of the Tau faction. Only fusion blasters have the same problem but get this compensated by the half range rule.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#8 » Jun 03 2017 05:08

The days of goodly Math is went, two :biggrin:
Guess you just mixed up most likely outcome and average outcome.


For future reference, the rule of thumb for dice average is (highest + lowest value)/2
Or, since lowest is 1 most of the time, highest/2+0.5

BTT:
Problem with both is hammerhead and railtide is that missileside (esp. with ATS) is still a thing that exists

Some Math:

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"
3 XV88 w. 2xHYMP = 24*0.5 (bs4+)*0.5(t7)*2 (avgD3) *0.66 (Sv5+) = 8 Wounds
3 XV88 w. 2xSMS = 24*0.5 (bs4+)*0.33(t7)*0.5 (Sv4+) = 2 Wounds
8+2=10 Wounds

BTW Tau Plasma is S6 so your math should be:

T7 Sv3+ target in 24"
XV88 = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.67 (t7) * 3.5 (avgD6) = 7.04 + 6 * 0.5 * 0.17 (mortal) = 7.04 + 0.51 = 7.55 wounds.
plasma = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.33 (t7) * 0.83 (6+ sv) = 0.82 wounds.
7.55 + 0.82 = 8.37 wounds.

Against a Sv2+ target the railguns will come out on top, against everything else the missileside will be more versatile.
Granted, an ATS MissileSide is 210 Points but that's well spent imho
Last edited by Atzilla on Jun 03 2017 05:18, edited 1 time in total.

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MKJump
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#9 » Jun 03 2017 05:13

Id much rather run a Stormsurge with PBC, BCs, EWO, ATS and a shield generator. It's cheaper at 440pts and much more reliable.

Shadeseraph
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#10 » Jun 03 2017 06:07

MKJump wrote:Id much rather run a Stormsurge with PBC, BCs, EWO, ATS and a shield generator. It's cheaper at 440pts and much more reliable.

Eh, rules wise I agree, but I dislike lords of war on principle, so I'm stuck with these. As such, this is a nice topic for me.

Also, IMO the stormsurge is ugly.

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#11 » Jun 03 2017 06:08

Ah Lord of War also needs an additional Detachment so if you agreed on a Detachment limit it might not be possible to bring one that easily anyway.

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MKJump
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#12 » Jun 03 2017 06:14

There's me thinking the stormsurge is the coolest model we have hahaha. I look the look of that thing, reminds of one of the Arms Forts from Armoured Core! The detachment limit can be an issue but you should build accordingly. All my lists I've been working on are structured: Battalion Det, Outrider Det and then a LoW Det.

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#13 » Jun 03 2017 06:31

Atzilla wrote:The days of goodly Math is went, two :biggrin:
Guess you just mixed up most likely outcome and average outcome.


For future reference, the rule of thumb for dice average is (highest + lowest value)/2
Or, since lowest is 1 most of the time, highest/2+0.5

BTT:
Problem with both is hammerhead and railtide is that missileside (esp. with ATS) is still a thing that exists

Some Math:

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"
3 XV88 w. 2xHYMP = 24*0.5 (bs4+)*0.5(t7)*2 (avgD3) *0.66 (Sv5+) = 8 Wounds
3 XV88 w. 2xSMS = 24*0.5 (bs4+)*0.33(t7)*0.5 (Sv4+) = 2 Wounds
8+2=10 Wounds

BTW Tau Plasma is S6 so your math should be:

T7 Sv3+ target in 24"
XV88 = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.67 (t7) * 3.5 (avgD6) = 7.04 + 6 * 0.5 * 0.17 (mortal) = 7.04 + 0.51 = 7.55 wounds.
plasma = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.33 (t7) * 0.83 (6+ sv) = 0.82 wounds.
7.55 + 0.82 = 8.37 wounds.

Against a Sv2+ target the railguns will come out on top, against everything else the missileside will be more versatile.
Granted, an ATS MissileSide is 210 Points but that's well spent imho


You are rounding everything up, it's 7.92+1.98 = 9.9 wounds :D

The problem with misslesides is their cost. 3 of them are 630 points, vs 495, 135 is a lot. Furthermore, they are 630/10=63 points per wound and railsides are 495/8.37=59.14.

What do you think of rocket drones? They are highly effective being cheaper than entire missile pod. Maybe we should mix a rocket+shield per broadside? And then put a drone controller in a single one.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#14 » Jun 03 2017 06:53

No rounding here :D just to lazy to type fractions.
24*1/2=12
12*1/2=6
6*2=12
12*2/3=8 wounds for HYMP

24*1/2=12
12*1/3=4
4*1/2=2 wounds for SMS

Still not sure about Missile Drones, I cant find a good place for the controller. I would much rather have ATS.
Maybe in a team of three Broadside like this?

1 HRR + SMS + Drone Controller
2 HYMP + SMS + ATS
2 Missile drones

But a 3 Broadside team seems really expensive, I am not sure I will field this. Rather 2 Monat Missilesides...

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#15 » Jun 03 2017 07:20

Stormsurge with PBC, BCs, EWO, ATS. Considering his 6" he will mostly fire at 20-30 range.

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"

PBC = 6*0.67(bs3+)*0.67(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.34 wounds
BCs = can't even shoot
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.67(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.5 wounds.
total = 2.84 wounds

So at a large distance it's highly ineffective;

T7 Sv3+ target in 20"

PBC = 4*0.5(bs4+)*0.67(t7)*0.83(6+) *3 = 3.5 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 5.31 wounds

T7 Sv3+ target in 10"

PBC = 2*0.5(bs4+)*0.83(t7)*6 = 4.98 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 6.79 wounds

So it's always worse, and in fact, it's risky to go in a charge distance.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#16 » Jun 03 2017 07:37

You forgot 0.66 wounds for the SMS

Had just calculated the same, I am shocked how low the output is.
Ok you can add 33% more wounds while standing still

With the Stormesurge I'd use ATS EWO and Stims, instead of shield gen to raise points efficiency

wighti
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#17 » Jun 03 2017 07:40

I think both broadsides and crisis suits have a place if you build your list with them in mind. The amount of fire a single broadside puts out is amazing but it is, obviously hindered by cost and the fact that there's plenty of guns that will make short work of them.

My thinking is that what makes them playable are drones. Lots and lots of drones.

Think about it, each and every drone is an extra wound to a broadside or crisis suit. If you can cram in say, 50 drones those broadsides and other suits start to look increasingly durable. Things like lascannons, Hunter killer missiles, lances etc become almost useless since all they do is kill a drone, if it's in cover or is an shield drone even that becomes a chore.

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boomwolf
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#18 » Jun 03 2017 07:42

If might improve point efficienty, but durability will plummet in the age of ap modifiers.

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