XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#11 » Jun 03 2017 06:08

Ah Lord of War also needs an additional Detachment so if you agreed on a Detachment limit it might not be possible to bring one that easily anyway.

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MKJump
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#12 » Jun 03 2017 06:14

There's me thinking the stormsurge is the coolest model we have hahaha. I look the look of that thing, reminds of one of the Arms Forts from Armoured Core! The detachment limit can be an issue but you should build accordingly. All my lists I've been working on are structured: Battalion Det, Outrider Det and then a LoW Det.

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#13 » Jun 03 2017 06:31

Atzilla wrote:The days of goodly Math is went, two :biggrin:
Guess you just mixed up most likely outcome and average outcome.


For future reference, the rule of thumb for dice average is (highest + lowest value)/2
Or, since lowest is 1 most of the time, highest/2+0.5

BTT:
Problem with both is hammerhead and railtide is that missileside (esp. with ATS) is still a thing that exists

Some Math:

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"
3 XV88 w. 2xHYMP = 24*0.5 (bs4+)*0.5(t7)*2 (avgD3) *0.66 (Sv5+) = 8 Wounds
3 XV88 w. 2xSMS = 24*0.5 (bs4+)*0.33(t7)*0.5 (Sv4+) = 2 Wounds
8+2=10 Wounds

BTW Tau Plasma is S6 so your math should be:

T7 Sv3+ target in 24"
XV88 = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.67 (t7) * 3.5 (avgD6) = 7.04 + 6 * 0.5 * 0.17 (mortal) = 7.04 + 0.51 = 7.55 wounds.
plasma = 6 * 0.5 (bs4+) * 0.33 (t7) * 0.83 (6+ sv) = 0.82 wounds.
7.55 + 0.82 = 8.37 wounds.

Against a Sv2+ target the railguns will come out on top, against everything else the missileside will be more versatile.
Granted, an ATS MissileSide is 210 Points but that's well spent imho


You are rounding everything up, it's 7.92+1.98 = 9.9 wounds :D

The problem with misslesides is their cost. 3 of them are 630 points, vs 495, 135 is a lot. Furthermore, they are 630/10=63 points per wound and railsides are 495/8.37=59.14.

What do you think of rocket drones? They are highly effective being cheaper than entire missile pod. Maybe we should mix a rocket+shield per broadside? And then put a drone controller in a single one.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#14 » Jun 03 2017 06:53

No rounding here :D just to lazy to type fractions.
24*1/2=12
12*1/2=6
6*2=12
12*2/3=8 wounds for HYMP

24*1/2=12
12*1/3=4
4*1/2=2 wounds for SMS

Still not sure about Missile Drones, I cant find a good place for the controller. I would much rather have ATS.
Maybe in a team of three Broadside like this?

1 HRR + SMS + Drone Controller
2 HYMP + SMS + ATS
2 Missile drones

But a 3 Broadside team seems really expensive, I am not sure I will field this. Rather 2 Monat Missilesides...

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#15 » Jun 03 2017 07:20

Stormsurge with PBC, BCs, EWO, ATS. Considering his 6" he will mostly fire at 20-30 range.

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"

PBC = 6*0.67(bs3+)*0.67(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.34 wounds
BCs = can't even shoot
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.67(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.5 wounds.
total = 2.84 wounds

So at a large distance it's highly ineffective;

T7 Sv3+ target in 20"

PBC = 4*0.5(bs4+)*0.67(t7)*0.83(6+) *3 = 3.5 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 5.31 wounds

T7 Sv3+ target in 10"

PBC = 2*0.5(bs4+)*0.83(t7)*6 = 4.98 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 6.79 wounds

So it's always worse, and in fact, it's risky to go in a charge distance.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#16 » Jun 03 2017 07:37

You forgot 0.66 wounds for the SMS

Had just calculated the same, I am shocked how low the output is.
Ok you can add 33% more wounds while standing still

With the Stormesurge I'd use ATS EWO and Stims, instead of shield gen to raise points efficiency

wighti
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#17 » Jun 03 2017 07:40

I think both broadsides and crisis suits have a place if you build your list with them in mind. The amount of fire a single broadside puts out is amazing but it is, obviously hindered by cost and the fact that there's plenty of guns that will make short work of them.

My thinking is that what makes them playable are drones. Lots and lots of drones.

Think about it, each and every drone is an extra wound to a broadside or crisis suit. If you can cram in say, 50 drones those broadsides and other suits start to look increasingly durable. Things like lascannons, Hunter killer missiles, lances etc become almost useless since all they do is kill a drone, if it's in cover or is an shield drone even that becomes a chore.

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boomwolf
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#18 » Jun 03 2017 07:42

If might improve point efficienty, but durability will plummet in the age of ap modifiers.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#19 » Jun 03 2017 07:47

boomwolf wrote:If might improve point efficienty, but durability will plummet in the age of ap modifiers.


vs AP 0 and AP 1 stims is better
vs AP 2 shield gen is slightly better
vs AP 3+ shield gen is way better

Which to use will depend on how many high AP weapons will actually be on the average table, and how many points are left in the list

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Peregrim
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#20 » Jun 03 2017 03:05

Hammerhead's performance improves vs T8 compared to the Broadside. Similarly, HRR broadside does more wounds against T8 than HYMP.

Average wounds against T8 3+:
3 Hammerheads with Railgun: 7.15
3 Broadsides with HRR: 6.71
3 Broadsides with HYMP: 5.33

I didn't include secondary armaments (e.g. SMS, plasma) in these calculations.

Edit:
The hammerhead also performs better than the broadside against units which modify to-hit rolls (e.g. Imperium tanks which used smoke launchers, Harlequin transports).

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Bloodknife92
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#21 » Jun 03 2017 04:25

Panzer wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:How on earth did you get an average roll on a D6? It is literally impossible to roll an average on a D6, as there's equal chance of rolling every side....

^ this
Also if anything it would've been 3.5 since the average of 2d6 would be 7, no?

You're actually all wrong. Statistically there is no aferage on a D6. On 2D6, the average is only 7 because between the two dice, it is the number with the kost possible combinations, totalling at 6, whereas the next closest number, 6, only has 5. On a single D6, there is no most average because once again, each single number has an equal chance to be rolled, and since its only 1D6 and not 2, there is no most common possible combination, ruling out the possible average of 3.5. I would however, for argument sake, say that 3.5 is the average when trying to create a mathematical formula like you are :)
The days of goodly English is went

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#22 » Jun 03 2017 04:34

Bloodknife92 wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Bloodknife92 wrote:How on earth did you get an average roll on a D6? It is literally impossible to roll an average on a D6, as there's equal chance of rolling every side....

^ this
Also if anything it would've been 3.5 since the average of 2d6 would be 7, no?

You're actually all wrong. Statistically there is no aferage on a D6. On 2D6, the average is only 7 because between the two dice, it is the number with the kost possible combinations, totalling at 6, whereas the next closest number, 6, only has 5. On a single D6, there is no most average because once again, each single number has an equal chance to be rolled, and since its only 1D6 and not 2, there is no most common possible combination, ruling out the possible average of 3.5. I would however, for argument sake, say that 3.5 is the average when trying to create a mathematical formula like you are :)

Yeah I know, but since you hardly ever roll only a single d6 over the course of a whole game with that weapon you can simply assume it's 3.5. It's the next best thing.

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Peregrim
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#23 » Jun 03 2017 04:55

What? In statistics you can simply use the expected value (which is the probability weighted average) to find the average outcome for something like a dice roll. Using the most common outcome as an average doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of a dice roll because - as you noted - there is no most common outcome for one D6. Your approach ends up with the bizarre quirk that you can only find an average dice roll if you roll an even number of dice. That's why the expected value is a much better measure of average; for an even number of dice it will give you the same result as the most common outcome, but it also lets you calculate a useful value for an odd number of dice.

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Hungry_Bert
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#24 » Jun 03 2017 06:02

Wow, I just came here to read about how to use my broadsides in 8th.

I came away having received a lesson on D6 statistics and wondering what a monat broadside is?

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Raverrn
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#25 » Jun 03 2017 06:11

'Monat' is the super nerdy way of referring to a single suit.

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Atzilla
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#26 » Jun 03 2017 06:45

@bloodknife92
You still talk about most common outcome calculation.
We use expected value in our calculation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value

@hungry_bert
The more you know :D
Though I remember the term Monat being quite commonly used on ATT.

We really should go back discussing broadsides now...

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#27 » Jun 03 2017 06:58

Raverrn wrote:'Monat' is the super nerdy way of referring to a single suit.

If you don't like how Tau things are named this is probably the wrong forum for you. :roll:

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Hungry_Bert
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#28 » Jun 05 2017 07:34

Thanks for the education chaps :D

I'm thinking of taking a railside into a 500 point Patrol detachment battle against a Tyranid player. I suspect he will be taking his winged hive tyrant and about 60 gaunts.

Does this sound like an efficient use of points or should I go for something that'll work better against the gaunts as well as the tyrant?

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