XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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boomwolf
Shas'La
Posts: 1697

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#31 » Jun 05 2017 08:34

Question is, is the HYMP+ATS combo more powerful, or more efficient?

Because one would not forget it also costs more (27 points to switch to HYMPs and take an ATS)

If the difference in damage is marginal (have not run numbers yet), then it might not actually be any better.

Shadeseraph
Shas
Posts: 64

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#32 » Jun 05 2017 09:11

First - plasma isn't a good idea because the only target that would care about it would be the tyrant, and with a move of 18" if you are anywhere near shooting range with plasma, he'll be charging you, so the comparisons should be:
HYMP/SMS/ATS vs HRR/SMS/MT (I'd say that the MT is better in this case - if you include markerlights, then it's not a great idea either.

HYMP/SMS/ATS costs 210, has a range of 36, and deals, as expected damage:
8 x 1/2 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2/3 x 2 = 2.377
8 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 1/2 x 2/3 = 0.444
2.821

HRR/SMS/MT costs 185 has a range of 60 / 36 and deals:
2 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 2/3 x 2/3 x 3.5 + 2 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 1/6 = 2.009
8 x (1/2 + 1/6 x 1/2) x 1/3 x 1/3 x 2/3 = 0.345
total expected damage = 2.354

The cost ratio is 1.135, the damage ratio is 1.198, which is in favor of the missileside. On top of that, add that the missileside is heaps better than the railside versus hordes.

I'd say that the real point is if you feel that you'll be capable of using those 60" of range.

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Peregrim
Shas'La
Posts: 125

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#33 » Jun 05 2017 11:48

Any thoughts on MP Crisis suits versus HYMP Broadsides?

Against T6 4+, 3MP Crisis suits are about as efficient as HYMP Broadsides w/ ATS. The Broadside is more efficient against T7 4+ and against better saves, but the Crisis suits have better mobility and they have the Fly keyword.

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MKJump
Shas'Saal
Posts: 104

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#34 » Jun 05 2017 12:15

Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.

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555ea
Shas'Saal
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#35 » Jun 09 2017 04:31

MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.

Dangphool
Shas
Posts: 1

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#36 » Jun 09 2017 08:29

Hungry_Bert wrote:Wow, I just came here to read about how to use my broadsides in 8th.

I came away having received a lesson on D6 statistics and wondering what a monat broadside is?




This!!

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boomwolf
Shas'La
Posts: 1697

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#37 » Jun 09 2017 09:05

555ea wrote:
MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.



Commander with 3 missiles and an ATS superior to just 4 missiles?
Interesting.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Posts: 685

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#38 » Jun 09 2017 11:33

555ea wrote:
MKJump wrote:Personally I'd say Crisis are better than broadsides and have much more versatility and movement.


Actually, it's sad, that our only hope are crisis counts-as-commanders and Supreme Command Detachments full of 5 commanders. According to AenariIT's mathhammer tables the points per wound are for Mpods:

-commander (4 mpods, 3mpods ats)
LR 116.3, 93.6 ATS
-xv8 (3 mpods, 2mpods ats)
LR 171, 147 ATS
-xv88 (hymp ats)
LR 135 ATS
-xv88 (hrr ats)
LR 89.3 ATS

So HRR is more effective only against T7 3+ and T8 3+\2+ targets, but still not as effective against other targets, as a commander.

Sure, Broadside has 2+, but it's less mobile and has no fly, so points for that are the same. It seems for me, that the "just-right" point cost for broadside is about 65 points, and HRR should be 53, not 63. Single Lascannon costs 25, and has S9, but AP -3, so a "single hrr" should cost 25, plus 3 points for twin. And a perfect broadside (hrr+2pr) would cost 140 points, much more viable, than now.


It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Kunas Ka
Shas'Saal
Posts: 33

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#39 » Jun 09 2017 12:27

It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.


I have to disagree after playing the 6 test games I played this week. (Opponent had Necrons, Tyranids and Eldar). I was mainly testing out the math hammer theory about Commanders vs Crisis and Broadsides. Commanders were for all intensive purposes more impact that Broadsides for 3 distinct reasons.

1. They are way more mobile which was very important for grabbing late game objectives and for disengaging combats and still firing back.

2. Manta Strike was an MVP. You can load your commanders out with anything and guarantee their safety until you need them to delete their specified targets. With 5 Commanders you can have dedicated Anti-Infantry, Anti MEQ and Anti-Vehicle whereas Broadsides specialize.

3. They were WAY more accurate. Against Flyers they hit 3+, same as a Broadside with VT. Against everything else (barring psychic powers) they hit on a 2+. Using commanders as a super specialized fire base I was able to win against all three lists.

The Supreme Command Detachment is a must for me now and with a Battalion you can have 8 Commanders (I only ran 6 with 2 Fireblades supporting my Fire Warriors). The best part about utilizing Commanders for me is that this list doesn't need Markerlights which have been super underwhelming until you hit 5, which is very very hard against shooting armies that go first (For me it was Eldar). I think Commanders, protected by a Crisis Squad equipped with flamers/Drones will be how I play going forward. This isn't pessimism and I am actually pretty happy with how the Tau have performed thus far. Some things in our army are just better than others.

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
Posts: 685

Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#40 » Jun 09 2017 01:02

Kunas Ka wrote:
It will all make sense once you guys start to play matches. Fielding loads of Commanders will not prove better I can promise you. Mathhammer only goes so far and you have to consider battlefield roles, applications, and possible scenarios. The Commander simply cannot be shoehorned into every role just because the math on paper looks good. In fact, you're going to see this a lot with pretty much every army. The math on paper looks good, but you'll find the application to be not as strong as you thought and vice versa.

The broadside has a lot of weapons, weapons that can be further specialized. This is something the Commander cannot do effeciently. Need something to take out fliers? VT can do that. Need something to take out deepstriking units? EWO can do that. Need something to help with overwatch? Counter-Defense system can do that. The Commander simply lacks the hard points to make that happen and lacks the firepower to make it effective.


I have to disagree after playing the 6 test games I played this week. (Opponent had Necrons, Tyranids and Eldar). I was mainly testing out the math hammer theory about Commanders vs Crisis and Broadsides. Commanders were for all intensive purposes more impact that Broadsides for 3 distinct reasons.

1. They are way more mobile which was very important for grabbing late game objectives and for disengaging combats and still firing back.

2. Manta Strike was an MVP. You can load your commanders out with anything and guarantee their safety until you need them to delete their specified targets. With 5 Commanders you can have dedicated Anti-Infantry, Anti MEQ and Anti-Vehicle whereas Broadsides specialize.

3. They were WAY more accurate. Against Flyers they hit 3+, same as a Broadside with VT. Against everything else (barring psychic powers) they hit on a 2+. Using commanders as a super specialized fire base I was able to win against all three lists.

The Supreme Command Detachment is a must for me now and with a Battalion you can have 8 Commanders (I only ran 6 with 2 Fireblades supporting my Fire Warriors). The best part about utilizing Commanders for me is that this list doesn't need Markerlights which have been super underwhelming until you hit 5, which is very very hard against shooting armies that go first (For me it was Eldar). I think Commanders, protected by a Crisis Squad equipped with flamers/Drones will be how I play going forward. This isn't pessimism and I am actually pretty happy with how the Tau have performed thus far. Some things in our army are just better than others.


I think you're missing the point. You can't take a unit like a broadside and then focus 2 of your 3 points about how mobile the Commander is in comparison. The broadside isn't that kind of unit. The broadside is a gunboat, plain and simple. In terms of firepower and the application of that firepower, the broadside is just better. To drill this point home, that would be like saying the Commander is better than a Stormsurge because the Stormsurge only moves 6'' and the Commander can move 8'' plus deepstrike capabilities.

To your second point, a Commander with 4 missile pods costs 172 points. A broadside with HYMP and SMS costs 202 points. That's only a 30pt difference and it offers so much more in the way of shooting. When you add support systems to the broadside, it becomes just plain and simple better than the Commander for the points.

To your third point, you need to look at all the rules. A Commander isn't "more accurate" against flyers since they both hit on a 3+ if the Broadside has VT. VT is only 2pts more and you get 8 more shots out of the deal. The take away here is the broadside has a higher chance to cause more wounds, especially with the appropriate support (Tau have rerolls coming from all over).

T'au is about taking troops, using force multipliers and putting on the hurt with that kind of synergy. I don't think you using your current list is an indication of how strong it is. Rather, I think it is an indication of your opponents not knowing how to counter it. If you like running that kind of list though, more power to you. You're clearly playing a more aggressive up-field list, in which case a broadside would likely not fit in it anyway.

To suggest that they are just better, however, is unfounded.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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