XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Kunas Ka
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#41 » Jun 09 2017 01:20

I think you're missing the point. You can't take a unit like a broadside and then focus 2 of your 3 points about how mobile the Commander is in comparison. The broadside isn't that kind of unit. The broadside is a gunboat, plain and simple. In terms of firepower and the application of that firepower, the broadside is just better. To drill this point home, that would be like saying the Commander is better than a Stormsurge because the Stormsurge only moves 6'' and the Commander can move 8'' plus deepstrike capabilities.

To your second point, a Commander with 4 missile pods costs 172 points. A broadside with HYMP and SMS costs 202 points. That's only a 30pt difference and it offers so much more in the way of shooting. When you add support systems to the broadside, it becomes just plain and simple better than the Commander for the points.


To suggest that they are just better, however, is unfounded.


I am not comparing a Commander to a Stormsurge, I am comparing it to a Broadside. A Stormsurge has 10 available weapons, can increase its own BS and can walk out of combat and shoot. Broadsides can be compared because they CAN fill the same role. Thats my point. Commanders may only be 30 pts cheaper but they can deepstrike, be mobile, attack back after a charge and have literally no reliance on markerlights. Broadsides HAVE to be supported to make it a good unit. I am not saying Broadsides do not have a place but with the push towards combat and the reality that we can be charged T1, having a good portion of our firepower able to start off the board and can fight back after combat is worth it.

And my entire post was about bringing evidence to the multiple posts about the math behind commanders. You keep saying just wait until we play and that is what I did. I am saying that early evidence suggests that Commanders can fill the slots of Crisis (excluding flame suits) and Broadsides. That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded. :?

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AnonAmbientLight
Shas'La
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#42 » Jun 10 2017 03:11

Kunas Ka wrote:
I think you're missing the point. You can't take a unit like a broadside and then focus 2 of your 3 points about how mobile the Commander is in comparison. The broadside isn't that kind of unit. The broadside is a gunboat, plain and simple. In terms of firepower and the application of that firepower, the broadside is just better. To drill this point home, that would be like saying the Commander is better than a Stormsurge because the Stormsurge only moves 6'' and the Commander can move 8'' plus deepstrike capabilities.

To your second point, a Commander with 4 missile pods costs 172 points. A broadside with HYMP and SMS costs 202 points. That's only a 30pt difference and it offers so much more in the way of shooting. When you add support systems to the broadside, it becomes just plain and simple better than the Commander for the points.


To suggest that they are just better, however, is unfounded.


I am not comparing a Commander to a Stormsurge, I am comparing it to a Broadside. A Stormsurge has 10 available weapons, can increase its own BS and can walk out of combat and shoot. Broadsides can be compared because they CAN fill the same role. Thats my point. Commanders may only be 30 pts cheaper but they can deepstrike, be mobile, attack back after a charge and have literally no reliance on markerlights. Broadsides HAVE to be supported to make it a good unit. I am not saying Broadsides do not have a place but with the push towards combat and the reality that we can be charged T1, having a good portion of our firepower able to start off the board and can fight back after combat is worth it.

And my entire post was about bringing evidence to the multiple posts about the math behind commanders. You keep saying just wait until we play and that is what I did. I am saying that early evidence suggests that Commanders can fill the slots of Crisis (excluding flame suits) and Broadsides. That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded. :?


The point I was making with the Stormsurge was that you are comparing Apples to Oranges. The Broadside is a gunboat like the Stormsurge. The Commander is a swiss army knife that can be kited out a certain way, but he is FAR from being so customizable as to replace other units in the index.

Kunas Ka wrote:Commanders may only be 30 pts cheaper but they can deepstrike, be mobile, attack back after a charge and have literally no reliance on markerlights. Broadsides HAVE to be supported to make it a good unit.


You are pretty much guaranteed to have markerlights in most lists or some kind of force multiplier. This is the point I am trying to drive home. 9/10 times the T'au list will have a solid source of markerlights, and the broadside's capabilities over the commander (in the same role) become more apparent with each markerlight hit.

Kunas Ka wrote:I am not saying Broadsides do not have a place but with the push towards combat and the reality that we can be charged T1, having a good portion of our firepower able to start off the board and can fight back after combat is worth it.


This is a curious line of thinking. You're worried about a T1 charge, so your solution is to leave "a good portion" of your army off the board so you can't fire overwatch or screen with those troops. A broadside with EWO could potentially stop a charge or take off wounds if it is on the field. Heck, having troops on the table to prepare for that T1 charge with overwatch is a better solution than leaving them off the table to start. Very odd strategy.

Kunas Ka wrote:And my entire post was about bringing evidence to the multiple posts about the math behind commanders.


Great, but as I've said many times over, you really cannot rely on mathhammer when it comes to deciding how to field stuff. Mathhammer does not take into account all the re-rolls, markerlights, and stratagems you could use and many are plentiful. It's useful to get a general idea of how your odds are, but that's about it.

Kunas Ka wrote:You keep saying just wait until we play and that is what I did.


I think a handful of games is hardly an indication of anything.

Kunas Ka wrote:I am saying that early evidence suggests that Commanders can fill the slots of Crisis (excluding flame suits) and Broadsides. That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded.


There are also other threads popping up suggesting the exact opposite with discussions going on there. There's no "early evidence" because there's not enough data for starters, and the data you have collected is not really reliable. Remember, the people you played are trying things out too / may not know what they are doing exactly.

Kunas Ka wrote:That is about as "founded" as we can have at this point. If anything your posts saying that we will all be proven wrong when we start playing is unfounded.


I'll just leave this here for you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

The real example of what's good will be made clear with the first major tournament using 8th edition rules. I bet dollarydoos that mass Commander suits will not be a thing.
Sky IS Falling, T'au WILL Suck, Sell Me Your Models

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Tastyfish
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#43 » Jun 17 2017 07:15

I'd take that bet, if we're talking Tau builds within a tournament rather than the winners of the event. They've got a lot going for them as well as basic points efficiency - un-targetable except when within range of a unit they can fob wounds off on to, able to trigger army wide buffs.

Bets off if they fix the Tau list ahead of a major tournament, but the set up of the starter set forces does make me question the old order of 40K (and make me wonder about Shas'els). 1 in 4.5 models being characters for marines, 1 in 5ish being characters or vehicles for nurgle.

Some fire warriors, few path finders and a commander or two I could easily see being the core of any force. Given there is no restriction on the number of commanders taken - what does a broadside do that a timed drop commander can't?

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boomwolf
Shas'La
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#44 » Jun 17 2017 07:47

AnonAmbientLight wrote:The real example of what's good will be made clear with the first major tournament using 8th edition rules. I bet dollarydoos that mass Commander suits will not be a thing.



I don't expect mass commander sits to be a thing.

The problem is, I don't expect anything tau AT ALL to be a thing in any high table in a major tournament. the individual models are just not good enough when you compare them to what others got, and the synergy isn't nearly good enough to make up for it (and most armies can pile up just as much or more synergy between units).

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Lechai Skull
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#45 » Jun 19 2017 01:34

I'll throw my hat into the broadside ring.

They are overpriced... heavily overpriced.
They have lots of firepower, but i would take a Stormsurge over 2 Braodsides every day of the week.

I will NOT be using them.

Hopefully they get a bit of balancing love when the codex comes out.

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Arka0415
Shas'Ui
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#46 » Jun 19 2017 01:49

Lechai Skull wrote:I'll throw my hat into the broadside ring.

They are overpriced... heavily overpriced.
They have lots of firepower, but i would take a Stormsurge over 2 Braodsides every day of the week.

I will NOT be using them.

Hopefully they get a bit of balancing love when the codex comes out.


Oh man I didn't even think about that. The Stormsurge costs a little bit more than two Broadsides, but still. That choice obviously favors the Stormsurge!!

EDIT: Looking at the numbers in the thread, it looks like the Broadsides actually outperform the Stormsurge. Thanks for reminding me of that 555ea. Guess I got ahead of myself.
Last edited by Arka0415 on Jun 19 2017 06:16, edited 1 time in total.

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555ea
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#47 » Jun 19 2017 03:37

555ea wrote:Stormsurge with PBC, BCs, EWO, ATS. Considering his 6" he will mostly fire at 20-30 range.

T7 Sv3+ target in 30"

PBC = 6*0.67(bs3+)*0.67(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.34 wounds
BCs = can't even shoot
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.67(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.5 wounds.
total = 2.84 wounds

So at a large distance it's highly ineffective;

T7 Sv3+ target in 20"

PBC = 4*0.5(bs4+)*0.67(t7)*0.83(6+) *3 = 3.5 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 5.31 wounds

T7 Sv3+ target in 10"

PBC = 2*0.5(bs4+)*0.83(t7)*6 = 4.98 wounds
BCs = 8*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 0.66
CR = 14 (avg4d6)*0.5(bs3+)*0.33(t7)*0.5(4+) = 1.15 wounds.
total = 6.79 wounds

So it's always worse, and in fact, it's risky to go in a charge distance.


Lol, guys, have you even read the thread ? :neutral: Like, we've already discussed, that 3 broadsides do much more damage, than a single stormsurge. It's like 8.37 wounds to a T7 3+ target, for 495 points and at MAX(!) 6.79 wounds for about the same of stormsurge, and that requires you getting in 10" range.

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Arka0415
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#48 » Jun 19 2017 06:18

555ea wrote:Lol, guys, have you even read the thread ? :neutral: Like, we've already discussed, that 3 broadsides do much more damage, than a single stormsurge. It's like 8.37 wounds to a T7 3+ target, for 495 points and at MAX(!) 6.79 wounds for about the same of stormsurge, and that requires you getting in 10" range.


You're right, thanks for reminding me. I wasn't thinking about the efficiency. Broadsides are expensive for the damage they deal, but the Stormsurge is also extremely expensive. Do you think one Broadside is worth the cost, or would you actually advocate taking three?

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Vector Strike
Shas'La
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#49 » Jun 19 2017 07:25

But the cheapest Broadside is HRR + 2xPR. Instead of comparing it to the PBC, you should compare it to the PDC, which has a gun of similar range. Then yes, 3 Broadies are more efficient than 1 Stormsurge.

Now, how about 3 HYMP Broadies x 1 PBC Stormsurge?

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russ29
Shas'Ui
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#50 » Jun 19 2017 09:37

Also the fact that stormsurge isn't a battlesuit might see it get whittle down a lot faster as well.
Through unity, devastation

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Lechai Skull
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#51 » Jun 19 2017 07:38

Id still prefer the stormsurge over 2 or 3 broadsides, even with lower damage output.

Why?

4 reasons.


1. People underestimate the tactical advantage of 4 destroyer missiles with D3 mortal wounds. Sure, even with markerlights, half of them will miss. but with so many units having invun saves, we need as many wortal wound dealing units as possible.

2. Its big, Give it a shield generator and watch the enemy freak out and waste a lot of firepower that would normally go towards weaker units.

3. Attrition. Any incoming fire directed at broadsides has to be soaked up by the broardsides OR the missile drones. The firepower output of the broadsides is going to drop a lot quicker than the stormsurges.

4. When assaulted, the stormsurge can leave combat and still shoot, the broadies cannot.

There is more to 40k than just damage output while at full strength.
Especially with reliable reserves and the fact that we rarely get first turn.

bansh
Shas
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#52 » Jun 29 2017 11:22

A missleseide supporting a gunline can put out a hell of a lot of fire...especially on overwatch...in 4 games my missle side has made the difference to a charge on my gunline...by firing him first ftgg... he can knockout2-3 marines quite reliably....making the range that much longer

Railside....what can i say that hasnt been said before.... very hit and miss....but when he hits...wow....almost singlehandedly killed a bloodthirster on his own in 1 1/2 turns last game..... my turn shot hit 5 wounds....over watch hit 5 wounds....my turn hit the magical 6 came up...
By setting him up on a flank with a good line of fire into mid table it isnt that hard to consentrate fire on a flank infantry unit and expose supporting hq.... even if you miss your opponent will quickly scramble to rearrange their forces to protect them... usually giving you another turn of repreive before your opponent throws everything into cc.....cos we are tau....

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Panzer
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#53 » Jun 30 2017 01:03

bansh wrote:A missleseide supporting a gunline can put out a hell of a lot of fire...especially on overwatch...in 4 games my missle side has made the difference to a charge on my gunline...by firing him first ftgg... he can knockout2-3 marines quite reliably....making the range that much longer

Not that reliable in Overwatch. Just 1.33 hits with the HYMP and another 1.33 hits with the SMS. Also the enemy doesn't have to remove models from the front of his unit so it shouldn't change the charge distance at all.

bansh
Shas
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Re: XV88 Broadsides in 8th ?

Post#54 » Jun 30 2017 02:43

I usually run 2-3 squads strike team 10 in each, obligitory kroot meat sheild 17 strong so it can snake around ensuring most things are in ftgg range and ats on the 88... does suprisingly well

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