Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1517

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#19 » Jun 19 2017 01:11

JPThunda wrote:Looking purely at the potential number of Markerlight hits, you're right, more Pathfinders is more points efficient, but that does not take into account how resilient a Cadre Fireblade is vs a unit of 5 Pathfinders (higher save, Character so can't be targeted directly, etc.) The same tradeoff applies to the Firesight Marksman, as his price tag is 3 Pathfinders but has similar tradeoffs in terms of resilience. That's why I advocate for a mix of resilient characters that are more difficult to remove with a larger unit of Pathfinders for bulk shots, especially when those characters can make Pathfinders harder to disrupt or remove.


This is true, the group would be much more durable. However, it's also quite vulnerable because the units are grouped up. Put the Fireblade with your Fire Warriors- you still get his BS2+ Markerlight and there's less KP density with the Pathfinder squad. Likewise, drop the Grav-Inhibitor Drone, as it's a 1W KP. That or, put 3-4 extra Drones with it for some added durability, but I wouldn't bother. Darkstrider would work well with the group.

Take the Fireblade away, and remove the Drone, and you have half the KP density with in the Pathfinder unit. Less of a priority target for your enemy. The Marksmen are durable, definitely, but... I still feel like you're paying points for his Drone-buffing abilities when you'd only be using him for the BS3+ Markerlight. Could still be worth it though.

AleksandrGRC
Shas'Saal
Posts: 43

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#20 » Jun 19 2017 04:32

Droneport for the 8-10 pathfinders?
Place the drones behind the droneport. So they only have line of sight to a low amount of targets this turn. They will be less likely targeted?

I really want to find a way to make some part of the Tidewalls usefull. And honestly pathfinders is one of the best scenarios i can think of But unfortunately its not so much as an army buff as it is having some control over my opponents target priorities and giving it a little extra padding to hopefully just soke up as much as possible. But thats still 3 killpoonts (killpoints seem to be the main bane :::( )

At which point we might as well take the suggestions of just more pathfinders.

I honestly think markerlights spread out over units and doing what we can to not lean so heavily on them is going to be our best layout.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1517

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#21 » Jun 19 2017 05:58

AleksandrGRC wrote:But thats still 3 killpoonts (killpoints seem to be the main bane


Yeah, this is the issue. We Tau already have an uphill battle in front of us, we can't hamper ourselves with 25+ KP in a normal list. Normally we've done really well in KP games, but a savvy player can target our Drones and score tons of KP in 1-2 turns. For me, no infantry squads of fewer than 5 models, no Drone squads of fewer than 4 models. The bigger the better if you can manage it. Solo deep strike Commanders should take 2 Drones, but that should be considered a desperate tactic.

AleksandrGRC wrote:I honestly think markerlights spread out over units and doing what we can to not lean so heavily on them is going to be our best layout.


Yeah, it looks like it. Keeping Markerlights spread out, so opponents can't target them. They might not make our accuracy much better (re-rolling ones is 1/12 more shots hitting), but they will prevent Ion weapons from overheating so much. Also, Seeker Missiles might... just might... be useful.

User avatar
Panzer
Shas'Saal
Posts: 3081

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#22 » Jun 19 2017 06:08

Arka0415 wrote:For me, no infantry squads of fewer than 5 models, no Drone squads of fewer than 4 models.

Well that would be pretty hard to do anyway since the only infantry squads with a lower minimum unit size than 5 are Vespid and Stealth Suits. :D

AleksandrGRC
Shas'Saal
Posts: 43

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#23 » Jun 19 2017 06:18

Spread em out. Makes em harder to kill. Like panzer said" Anything to anoy the enemy"

Seekers. one thing the markerlights got a buff in.
What platform though. The devilfish you might already be taking. Maybe longshot and friends.
Not seeing much love for the Pirhanna.
With needing volume Anything 10-20 wounds is going to just soak them up. Unless we are talking holding them back to do the last wound.
Or is our target mid level models. Like elite troops with one wound.
Getting 10+ seekers seems like a headache of a niche list.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1517

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#24 » Jun 19 2017 06:22

Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:For me, no infantry squads of fewer than 5 models, no Drone squads of fewer than 4 models.

Well that would be pretty hard to do anyway since the only infantry squads with a lower minimum unit size than 5 are Vespid and Stealth Suits. :D


Caught me thinking about old editions again! I forgot that Pathfinder unit size is 5 or more now. So definitely don't take infantry squads smaller than 5, 'cause it's not legal!

JPThunda
Shas
Posts: 22

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#25 » Jun 19 2017 02:24

A Fireblade with a Drone port seems like a reasonable cost for reliable, if fragile, markerlights. Thats 5 B.S. 2+ Markerlights for 152 points, and so long as you shoot the Fireblade first and hit the drones are rerolling 1's to hit with theirs. It is 3 killpoints, as has been pointed out, but Tau have always suffered with killpoints due to our drones, especially when the drones were forced to disembark when a devilfish popped (a few editions back). Kill point struggles are really old hat for us.

PJetski
Shas'Saal
Posts: 22

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#26 » Jun 19 2017 03:30

For 152 points you could bring 19 Pathfinders and get an average of 9-10 markerlights per turn. It could be two squads and reduce the total kill points by 1.

I like the idea of using a Droneport to get good BS on markerdrones, but it seems inefficient for the purposes of putting markerlights up.


What if we put a Firesight Marksman (24) in a Droneport (60) with 4 Marker Drones (40) for a total of 124pts. It would still be cheaper to just take a bunch of Pathfinders, but this gives you the option to take Sniper Drones (just throw a drone controller onto a riptide/broadside) and park some Pathfinders with special weapons in the droneport. Maybe that's worth something?

Bolter&Rail
Shas'Saal
Posts: 67

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#27 » Jun 19 2017 03:50

I didnt catch that the drones need to disembark to use a model's BS.... that does hamper it a bit as I thought they had to remove the platform to remove the drones if we wanted. Do the drones shoot at their regular BS when still embarked on the port?

The question to me then comes down to if the drone port durable enough to be a legit transport to house some firewarriors/pathfinders. I was going to put 9 firewarriors and Fireblade in the port for 1 drop and hoping on 5 BS2+ markerlights and a platform in the center of my gunline that is more or less an open-topped rhino. If that can last a few turns and provide marker support I think its interesting. If people kill the drones quickly and chew threw the 10wound transport quickly its a complete waste...

Seems like early reports have been saying our devilfishes "can" be durable in some games. The droneport is weaker but in the same ballpark...

User avatar
Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#28 » Jun 19 2017 04:10

Bolter&Rail wrote:I didnt catch that the drones need to disembark to use a model's BS.... that does hamper it a bit as I thought they had to remove the platform to remove the drones if we wanted. Do the drones shoot at their regular BS when still embarked on the port?

The question to me then comes down to if the drone port durable enough to be a legit transport to house some firewarriors/pathfinders. I was going to put 9 firewarriors and Fireblade in the port for 1 drop and hoping on 5 BS2+ markerlights and a platform in the center of my gunline that is more or less an open-topped rhino. If that can last a few turns and provide marker support I think its interesting. If people kill the drones quickly and chew threw the 10wound transport quickly its a complete waste...

Seems like early reports have been saying our devilfishes "can" be durable in some games. The droneport is weaker but in the same ballpark...


Tidewalls now can pass over terrain and even use some kinds of cover!

Bolter&Rail
Shas'Saal
Posts: 67

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#29 » Jun 19 2017 05:24

The other thing I really struggle to justify is it appears matched play 2k point games are leaning towards a 3 detachment limit.... a droneport taking up an entire detachment by itself and not contributing any CPs is super disappointing :(

They need to fix that. I will try a drone port and give it a shot. It was good in 7th given its points, and with the gunline shift tau looks to be taking in 8th I would love to see it in the mix. It will take some creativity though, but worse case scenario you have the guys hop out and have the droneport charge the enemy to try to buy you another turn before getting assaulted for what its worth :D

User avatar
Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#30 » Jun 19 2017 06:17

Bolter&Rail wrote:The other thing I really struggle to justify is it appears matched play 2k point games are leaning towards a 3 detachment limit.... a droneport taking up an entire detachment by itself and not contributing any CPs is super disappointing :(

They need to fix that. I will try a drone port and give it a shot. It was good in 7th given its points, and with the gunline shift tau looks to be taking in 8th I would love to see it in the mix. It will take some creativity though, but worse case scenario you have the guys hop out and have the droneport charge the enemy to try to buy you another turn before getting assaulted for what its worth :D


detachment limitation is just for tourneys. normal games don't have those

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1517

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#31 » Jun 19 2017 08:07

Vector Strike wrote:detachment limitation is just for tourneys. normal games don't have those


I wonder if some players will try to cite that rule though? I mean, it's optional obviously, but someone's going to try to argue it.

JPThunda
Shas
Posts: 22

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#32 » Jun 19 2017 09:01

It comes back to survivability, and in this case maneuverability as well. A Drone port, Fireblade, and squad of drones is harder to remove that two big units of pathfinders. (Better save, move and fire, better toughness, character). I really don't know what the best option will be, and it will depend on the list. That package I posted earlier is expensive, but I will try it out. I also plan to try a Drone Port + Fireblade + 10 Pathfinders as my sources of markerlights. That may be a good balance of bulk, redundancy, and survivability.

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1517

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#33 » Jun 19 2017 09:07

JPThunda wrote:It comes back to survivability, and in this case maneuverability as well. A Drone port, Fireblade, and squad of drones is harder to remove that two big units of pathfinders. (Better save, move and fire, better toughness, character). I really don't know what the best option will be, and it will depend on the list. That package I posted earlier is expensive, but I will try it out. I also plan to try a Drone Port + Fireblade + 10 Pathfinders as my sources of markerlights. That may be a good balance of bulk, redundancy, and survivability.


The Drone Port itself is survivable, but the Marker Drones aren't protected at all since they need to disembark in order to get their bonus Ballistic Skill.

AleksandrGRC
Shas'Saal
Posts: 43

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#34 » Jun 19 2017 10:19

Move and fire?
Heavy weapons can move and fire but are harder to hit
I think being on any tidewall thats moving still counts as moving now.
I also love the old pictures of crisis and pirhanna on the ports but it clearly says only infantry :neutral:

Also i read somewhere about putting the tidewall stuff in cover. I thought only infantry benifits from cover?

User avatar
Vector Strike
Shas'La
Shas'La
Posts: 955

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#35 » Jun 20 2017 07:06

AleksandrGRC wrote:Move and fire?
Heavy weapons can move and fire but are harder to hit
I think being on any tidewall thats moving still counts as moving now.
I also love the old pictures of crisis and pirhanna on the ports but it clearly says only infantry :neutral:

Also i read somewhere about putting the tidewall stuff in cover. I thought only infantry benifits from cover?


Infantry can use any kind of cover; other stuff must be allowed to use that kind of cover AND be at least 50% covered.
Barricades and pipelines, for example, only protect infantry. A piece of scenery (like a house), if it covers at leasst 50% of a model, will give it cover

User avatar
Arka0415
Shas'Ui
Shas'Ui
Posts: 1517

Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#36 » Jun 20 2017 07:48

Vector Strike wrote:Infantry can use any kind of cover; other stuff must be allowed to use that kind of cover AND be at least 50% covered.
Barricades and pipelines, for example, only protect infantry. A piece of scenery (like a house), if it covers at leasst 50% of a model, will give it cover


If you could somehow actually give a Tidewall cover, wouldn't it double its Mortal Wound output, since 5s and 6s would count as 6s for its armor saves? Still not a viable strategy but it's a weird side-effect!

Return to “Tau Tactics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests