Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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gmaleron
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Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#1 » Jun 17 2017 09:10

Haven't seen this discussed so figured I would bring it up, with all of the talk surrounding Markerlights and the best unit to run them maybe somewhat of a unique approach but why not focus on the Cadre Fireblade? For only 42pts. You get a character who hits on a 2+ meaning he can't be targeted if there are other units in front of him and taking 5 only costs 210 points and also would give us five drops which would allow us to put a lot of suit teams in reserve if we wanted to. Anyone else thought of this or have any thoughts?

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Jefffar
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#2 » Jun 17 2017 09:46

I don't think a bunch of fireblades as a primary marker source is a really good idea. It's a lot of points for a single token and I suspect characters are going to not be as hard to take out as we think, especially ones with only 4+ armour.

On the other hand, as the first step in a markerlight cascade including Pathfinders/Markerdrones I think there may be a role. The high hit probability first token will improve the odds of the follow up unit putting a further 4 tokens in place.

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Vector Strike
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#3 » Jun 17 2017 09:53

If you do that, you won't get first turn ever!

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QimRas
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#4 » Jun 17 2017 09:59

Vector Strike wrote:If you do that, you won't get first turn ever!


Unless you put then in a Fish

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gmaleron
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#5 » Jun 17 2017 10:06

Vector Strike wrote:If you do that, you won't get first turn ever!


High number of IG armies at my store would actually be somewhat equal in terms of drops.

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Panzer
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#6 » Jun 17 2017 10:12

Jefffar wrote:I don't think a bunch of fireblades as a primary marker source is a really good idea. It's a lot of points for a single token and I suspect characters are going to not be as hard to take out as we think, especially ones with only 4+ armour.

On the other hand, as the first step in a markerlight cascade including Pathfinders/Markerdrones I think there may be a role. The high hit probability first token will improve the odds of the follow up unit putting a further 4 tokens in place.

Yeah it really isn't if you have some deep striking units or proper sniper unit.
Unless you bubble wrap your characters with your whole army (means sticking close together and hoping no enemy ever breaches your lines) or buy dedicated decently sized bubble wrap units you will lose squishy characters like a Fireblade rather quickly.

I don't think Fireblades are bad and they do awesomely to support your Markerlight sources but you shouldn't depend on just them imo.

Supershrew
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#7 » Jun 17 2017 10:33

I'm using the cadre fireblade as my first markerlight( the match) . Will allow commanders to reroll misses and increases the chance of getting my pathfinders to get 4 extra on high priority targets ( land raiders and knights for example ).

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Iron-Fist
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#8 » Jun 17 2017 02:45

QimRas wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:If you do that, you won't get first turn ever!


Unless you put then in a Fish


Can you point out where this is from to me?
Augmented Puretide Council
The Tau Deathstar 2015: 8-1

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Heldericht
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#9 » Jun 17 2017 03:30

You could put 5 of them in a Shieldline for a sturdy and reliable markerlight source which counts as one drop for deployment. Bit expensive though. Depends on how badly you need all 5 markerlights (say you're running a lot of seeker missiles)

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QimRas
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#10 » Jun 17 2017 03:41

Iron-Fist wrote:
QimRas wrote:
Vector Strike wrote:If you do that, you won't get first turn ever!


Unless you put then in a Fish


Can you point out where this is from to me?


https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netd ... ry-ENG.pdf

Third question on page 3.

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#11 » Jun 17 2017 08:21

Actually, I think your into something here. Consider this; the drone port rule Drone Control Systems states that when a T'au Empire Infantry unit activates the docked drones, those drone may use that units BS in place of its own. There is no mention of for how long, such as "the turn they're activated", so in effect, you can get 4 marker drones with BS 2+ by deploying your Cadre Fireblade inside a drone port. Boom, that's 5 2+ marker lights per drone port. Nice.

Czar Ziggy

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Heldericht
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#12 » Jun 17 2017 08:31

Czar Ziggy wrote:Actually, I think your into something here. Consider this; the drone port rule Drone Control Systems states that when a T'au Empire Infantry unit activates the docked drones, those drone may use that units BS in place of its own. There is no mention of for how long, such as "the turn they're activated", so in effect, you can get 4 marker drones with BS 2+ by deploying your Cadre Fireblade inside a drone port. Boom, that's 5 2+ marker lights per drone port. Nice.

Czar Ziggy


I did consider this. The problem is, the drones have to detach in order to get the bs2+ buff.

However once they detach your opponent can easily target and kill them. Would be a waste :(.

Thats the one big problem we have right now. Our markerlights are all on flimsy platforms.

Ash87
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#13 » Jun 17 2017 09:24

Just because Markers are flimsy doesn't mean they are useless.

I mean, one marker drone is 10 points. You can get 4 and a drone controller for 48 points, just a few points More than a Cadre, and they drop markers on a 4+. That is already more effective than a single cadre, since not only by average will they drop More markers, but they can move prior to doing so, whereas if the Cadre does, his +2 goes to +3, which reduces the chance it lands... Yeah.

The idea of using a drone port is probably the... "Best" solution here, but I would argue that it'd be better to use a firelight marksman, as opposed to a Cadre, in that situation, because it'd be half the price, and it wouldn't be tieing up a Cadre, who you could otherwise use, to boost some squads someplace (Because the aura ability of the Cadre, isn't exerted from the vehicle he's put into).

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Czar Ziggy
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#14 » Jun 17 2017 09:29

Heldericht wrote:
Czar Ziggy wrote:Actually, I think your into something here. Consider this; the drone port rule Drone Control Systems states that when a T'au Empire Infantry unit activates the docked drones, those drone may use that units BS in place of its own. There is no mention of for how long, such as "the turn they're activated", so in effect, you can get 4 marker drones with BS 2+ by deploying your Cadre Fireblade inside a drone port. Boom, that's 5 2+ marker lights per drone port. Nice.

Czar Ziggy


I did consider this. The problem is, the drones have to detach in order to get the bs2+ buff.

However once they detach your opponent can easily target and kill them. Would be a waste :(.

Thats the one big problem we have right now. Our markerlights are all on flimsy platforms.



Perhaps, but that will come down to how you use them. You'll still get at least one turn to use them, making it a lot easier to get that elusive 5+ marker result. And put them in cover. Woods and ruins still provide cover for drone so long as 50% of the models are obscured.

Czar Ziggy

X-FuryEagle-X
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#15 » Jun 17 2017 09:31

gmaleron wrote:...why not focus on the Cadre Fireblade? For only 42pts. You get a character who hits on a 2+ meaning he can't be targeted if there are other units in front of him and taking 5 only costs 210 points and also would give us five drops which would allow us to put a lot of suit teams in reserve if we wanted to.


QimRas wrote:Unless you put then in a Fish


If you are going down this path, have you considered the firesight marksman? Yes, they are only BS3+, but to offset that they are a lot cheaper and get +2 when in cover. For very close to your same 210 points above, you could get 4 x firesight marksman and a devilfish with 2 drones. That's a single deployment drop, 4 semi reliable markerlights (especially if you're already re-rolling 1's), very resilient in cover and as long as the fish is lurking, they can't be targeted. Weapons that would normally kill firesights easily will be laughed off by the fish.

Of course, you could take a full squad of pathfinders in a fish for much cheaper, the trade off being they would be BS4+ and could be targeted. But to the topic of the OP, firesight marksman may be better than fireblades.

JPThunda
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#16 » Jun 18 2017 11:23

I've been looking at our Markerlight situation, and while I think the Fireblade is definitely a part of the solution to this problem, he's not the only one. This is what I'm going to try for my core support:

Cadre Fireblade
Darkstrider
10x Pathfinders w/ 3 Rail Rifles & 1 Grav Inhibitor Drone
2x Firesight Marksmen

Points: 280

Obviously you can get this down a little bit in terms of points. For pure markers you can easily save 57 points by dropping the Rail Rifles, but you lose out on some flexibility. As it stands this set puts out, on average, 6.5 Markerlight hits per turn, so you have some room to take losses and still put 5 marker hits on a target, or spread some around.

There's a lot of crossbuffing and synergy that happens with this setup that I really like. Firstly, Fireblade, Darkstrider, and the Pathfinders deploy together in cover.

Darkstrider grants the Pathfinders the Structural Analyser and Fighting Retreat. The Analyser is the reason for the Rail Rifles. Making it easier for those puppies to wound when they have AP-4 and a strong damage potential is quite nice. Fighting Retreat allows our unit to shoot if they Fall Back. As this is the primary source of markerlights for the army, I find this to be invaluable to help protect us from deep striking assaults meant to tie up our markerlights, should any of them survive the initial assault.

To help prevent them from actually getting charged, give the Pathfinders a cheap Grav Inhibitor Drone. If you are in suitable cover, that means any enemy charging you is doing so at -(2+d3)", a difficult charge to make for a deep striking unit at 9" away (If you roll a 1 on a d3, they need an 11 to be within 1").

The Cadre Fireblade adds further deterrent to any would-be chargers by upping our Overwatch with Volley Fire, since our Pathfinders will be firing 3 shots with their Carbines at 9" (or 12" with a pulse accelerator drone). That means we should average around 3 hits from our Pathfinders, plus 1 Rail Rifle hit, plus 1 more hit between the Fireblade and Darkstrider against any would-be chargers. Thats not necessarily enough to stop the charge on its own, but taken in hand with an already long charge due to cover + the grav inhibitor drone, it's just one more reason not to charge them.

The Firesights can deploy separately on flanks, but must also be in cover. So long as the cover grants a save, the Firesights are sitting on a 2+ save, and being characters they will be difficult to remove.

Pathfinders are still fragile and vulnerable to shooting, but they always have been. There's really no way around that, short of a Tidewall segment.

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Arka0415
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#17 » Jun 19 2017 12:51

JPThunda wrote:I've been looking at our Markerlight situation, and while I think the Fireblade is definitely a part of the solution to this problem, he's not the only one. This is what I'm going to try for my core support:

Cadre Fireblade
Darkstrider
10x Pathfinders w/ 3 Rail Rifles & 1 Grav Inhibitor Drone
2x Firesight Marksmen

Points: 280

...

There's a lot of crossbuffing and synergy that happens with this setup that I really like. Firstly, Fireblade, Darkstrider, and the Pathfinders deploy together in cover.


This Markerlight group is worth 6 Kill Points and outputs 11 Markerlight shots, of which you should expect to hit 6. It's also 280 points. For the same 280 points, you could invest in 35 Pathfinders, which could get you 17.5 Markerlight hits per turn. That's a lot though, so if you just want 6 Markerlight hits per turn, then field two 6-man squads of Pathfinders for 96 points.

Also, I wouldn't put a Fireblade with a Pathfinder squad. He'd increase the squad's number of shots from 14 to 21, bringing the expected number of overwatch hits from 2.3 to 3.5. For the Fireblade's 42 points, you could just add 5 more Pathfinders. This would give you 5 more Markerlights and 10 more overwatch shots, getting you 4 expected hits in overwatch, and 1.7 more Markerlight hits during the shooting phase. Synergy units, like Fireblades, are only viable if they can buff a large number of squads.

Anyway, there are very few circumstances where more Pathfinders isn't the answer. If you want more Markerlight hits, you need to just bring more Pathfinders.

JPThunda
Shas
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Re: Cadre Fireblades: Our true Markerlights

Post#18 » Jun 19 2017 12:59

Looking purely at the potential number of Markerlight hits, you're right, more Pathfinders is more points efficient, but that does not take into account how resilient a Cadre Fireblade is vs a unit of 5 Pathfinders (higher save, Character so can't be targeted directly, etc.) The same tradeoff applies to the Firesight Marksman, as his price tag is 3 Pathfinders but has similar tradeoffs in terms of resilience. That's why I advocate for a mix of resilient characters that are more difficult to remove with a larger unit of Pathfinders for bulk shots, especially when those characters can make Pathfinders harder to disrupt or remove.

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