The MantaCore

Discuss tactical and strategic development for 40K/Tau.
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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#11 » Jun 19 2017 03:51

Lechai Skull wrote:
Panzer wrote:
Arka0415 wrote:
It's funny that they added the 50% deployment rule to counter cheesy null deployments. Ha, we Tau will put 100 points on the table and 1400 points in space! Good enough for me :)

Especially because we can do pseudo null-deployment with Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. Those don't get placed in reserves, but they get replaced after deployment. :D


That and stealth suits are actually useful now. Throw a 2 point velocity tracker on 1 of them and the whole unit is BS 3+ vs anything with the 'fly' keyword

You can do a lot with Stealth Suits.
Velocity Tracker for some anit-air (althought their weapons are fairly short ranged for that taks), Markerlight, Drone Controller and Marker Drones for a Suit based Markerlight source, Homing Beacon for some Crisis fun (either flamer/FB or anything else and then charge a second unit), or as simple annoying unit with ATS on Burst Cannons and Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster.
One of my absolute favorite units this edition. I liked them before but now they are finally worth their points as well. :D

AleksandrGRC
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#12 » Jun 19 2017 04:05

Panzer/others. What is your opinion of using stealth suits (supported) as the screening force to recieve charges when moving second or doing gunlines.

I feel they will do a good job of it (on paper) but will it be a good enough job when considering not using things like infiltrate to its fullest or not using potentially better units.

A much shorter version of what i commented before
Is I propose stealth suits with a fireblade (or any photon grenade source) and drones behind. Is EWO on stealths a bad idea? I also feel a homing beacon is still usefull in this roll of gunline setup.

Also another question i have that relates to why im thinking this.
If i fall back, With fly, if i meet the further away than 1" as well as keeping proper distance from other units rules. Can i technically jump over and move forward during a fall back?

So thats like three questions, kinda.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#13 » Jun 19 2017 04:24

AleksandrGRC wrote:Panzer/others. What is your opinion of using stealth suits (supported) as the screening force to recieve charges when moving second or doing gunlines.

I feel they will do a good job of it (on paper) but will it be a good enough job when considering not using things like infiltrate to its fullest or not using potentially better units.

A much shorter version of what i commented before
Is I propose stealth suits with a fireblade (or any photon grenade source) and drones behind. Is EWO on stealths a bad idea? I also feel a homing beacon is still usefull in this roll of gunline setup.

Also another question i have that relates to why im thinking this.
If i fall back, With fly, if i meet the further away than 1" as well as keeping proper distance from other units rules. Can i technically jump over and move forward during a fall back?

So thats like three questions, kinda.

Stealth Suits as screening unit work....okay-ish. They sure can soak some damage with nearby Drones but they are usually just too small.
The day before yesterday they got charged by a unit of Infiltrators (or Ruststalker? The ones with mortal wounds on 6s) and he rolled a LOT of 6s. I sacrificed my two nearby Drones and 1 1/2 suit because I got kinda lucky with the saves (two of my 3 had Shield Gen).
So yes they can take a charge. However they were on their own and he only charged them because they had yet to deploy their Homing Beacon. If they were trying to screen another unit, he could just have walked past them.

EWO is not a bad idea but I don't think it would do that much. A Stealth Suit units damage output is not that big to begin with, but it could be a nice mind game on a Fusion Blaster suit.

Yes you can fall back in any direction as long as you don't end up within 1" of any enemy unit.
Last edited by Panzer on Jun 19 2017 05:01, edited 1 time in total.

AleksandrGRC
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#14 » Jun 19 2017 04:54

"could have just walked past them" kinda kills my ideas lol.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#15 » Jun 19 2017 05:00

Exactly. :D

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Arka0415
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#16 » Jun 19 2017 05:22

AleksandrGRC wrote:"could have just walked past them" kinda kills my ideas lol.


Stealthsuits are a durable unit, both to shooting and (oddly) assault. However, a good screening unit isn't defined by it's durabilty, but by it's ability to prevent charges on valuable units. So you need three characteristics on a good screening unit. The first is coverage: a large number of bases strung out in a line. By placing this sort of unit in front of a more valuable unit, you can block charges much in the way a speed bump slows a car. It cannot stop it, but it also cannot be avoided, so it buys you valuable time. The second characteristic is having strong overwatch- your screening unit may not do much shooting, but having good overwatch is great since the unit is charge bait. Third, durability is a bonus- if you have the other two, durability is a nice addition.

Kroot have coverage, but they're not too good in overwatch, and they're not durable. Stealthsuits are durable and have decent overwatch, but no coverage since they're expensive units usually in small squads.

Drones, on the other hand... they're durable, cheap, have fearsome overwatch, and can be strung out for really effective coverage!! If only they came with Flamers...

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Arka0415
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#17 » Jun 19 2017 05:28

Panzer wrote:You can do a lot with Stealth Suits.
Velocity Tracker for some anit-air (althought their weapons are fairly short ranged for that taks), Markerlight, Drone Controller and Marker Drones for a Suit based Markerlight source, Homing Beacon for some Crisis fun (either flamer/FB or anything else and then charge a second unit), or as simple annoying unit with ATS on Burst Cannons and Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster.
One of my absolute favorite units this edition. I liked them before but now they are finally worth their points as well. :D


Stealthsuits are great, no doubt about it. The only problem is, they don't bring anything you can't already bring scads of. They bring S5 shooting, but we can get that just about anywhere. I guess the difficulty in hitting them is a great addition though- durable S5 firepower is pretty uncommon.

Though, putting the Shield Generator on the Fusion Blaster seems a little risky! You can let a Stealthsuit die to a Lascannon blast, or you can risk losing your all-important Fusion Blaster.

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Panzer
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#18 » Jun 19 2017 06:03

Arka0415 wrote:Drones, on the other hand... they're durable, cheap, have fearsome overwatch, and can be strung out for really effective coverage!! If only they came with Flamers...

Drones with Flamer! Now that is my new favorite wishlisting thing! :D

Arka0415 wrote:
Panzer wrote:You can do a lot with Stealth Suits.
Velocity Tracker for some anit-air (althought their weapons are fairly short ranged for that taks), Markerlight, Drone Controller and Marker Drones for a Suit based Markerlight source, Homing Beacon for some Crisis fun (either flamer/FB or anything else and then charge a second unit), or as simple annoying unit with ATS on Burst Cannons and Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster.
One of my absolute favorite units this edition. I liked them before but now they are finally worth their points as well. :D


Stealthsuits are great, no doubt about it. The only problem is, they don't bring anything you can't already bring scads of. They bring S5 shooting, but we can get that just about anywhere. I guess the difficulty in hitting them is a great addition though- durable S5 firepower is pretty uncommon.

Though, putting the Shield Generator on the Fusion Blaster seems a little risky! You can let a Stealthsuit die to a Lascannon blast, or you can risk losing your all-important Fusion Blaster.

The advantage Stealth Suits have is being Infantry with a 3+ save. Means they have a 2+ save in terrain. Any other Infantry has a 4+ save and anything else with a 3+ save is not Infantry. On top of that the -1 to-hit and the enemy will hate to dedicate firepower to them.
That also makes them an interesting choice for a secondary markerlight source and the Fusion Blaster is just enough to make it sting when he hits so he can't really completely ignore them either.
Them being infantry also allows them to pick up the relic etc. (which is REALLY strong with their infiltrate if you get first turn).

The S5 shooting is not the reason you take them. It's just what they come with and if you don't have anything better to give, give them ATS to make it a bit more annoying. Or a Shield Gen to make it even more annoying to shoot at them. Or add a Gun/Shield Drone somewhere.

The Shield Gen on Fusion Blaster is only meant as last resort after all your BC Suits and Drones are gone obviously. He doesn't really need anything else so it's just as good as most other options and the enemy will hate having to shoot at him if he's the only one remaining.
Right now since Shield Gens are so cheap and we shoot like crap I feel like I should just do everything to annoy the enemy and make it harder for him to kill me. :P

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#19 » Jun 19 2017 07:24

Update:

Had a battle with a slightly modified MantaCore last night
I didn't have enough drone models, so i had 16 gun and 1 shield instead of 20
i didn't have enough plasma guns, so some of my suits had misslepods + ATS

Worked really well.

My opponent was standard spacemarines.

I dropped into the very middle of the table and bubbled up right next to the drones and riptide.
wiped out the SM bikes and dropped 8 wounds off the thunkerhawk which had decimated my pathfinders.
Was charged by a 6man unit of termi's with thunderhammers and stormshields led by a chaplain. killed 4 in overwatch and lost 2 drones and 3 wounds on the riptide in return. Its so durable with 'for the greater good'. Felt bad to get nerfed and still table my opponent.
In the end every drone was dead, but all 3 of my crisis suits, riptide and commander were alive.
To be honest he didn't roll that great, and his list wasn't 100% optimised. But it was great to see the MantaCore work well!

Hot tip, save all your CP for fusion and rail damage rolls. :biggrin:

JustGreg
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Posts: 90

Re: The MantaCore

Post#20 » Jun 19 2017 07:29

Panzer wrote:Right now since Shield Gens are so cheap and we shoot like crap I feel like I should just do everything to annoy the enemy and make it harder for him to kill me. :P

Do agree, think that tough-as-they-can-be stealth suits for grabbing objectives is a viable option. 2+/4++ -1 to hit is pretty damn good.

Also, just a little appreciation for the name "Mantacore". The speed and toughness of a lion, lead by the smart head of a man, with the sting of a scorpion is about as good of a description of this drop as any I can think of. love it!

And yes about rerolls, we're going all in with this kind of list, so we have to make our damage count asap huh.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#21 » Jun 19 2017 07:54

JustGreg wrote:
Also, just a little appreciation for the name "Mantacore". The speed and toughness of a lion, lead by the smart head of a man, with the sting of a scorpion is about as good of a description of this drop as any I can think of. love it!


Wow, i missed that description of the name. Its awesome. I just called it that because on the units Manta Drop ability with it being the Core of every army list. But now the name has a dual purpose.

JustGreg
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Posts: 90

Re: The MantaCore

Post#22 » Jun 19 2017 08:58

Lechai Skull wrote:
JustGreg wrote:
Also, just a little appreciation for the name "Mantacore". The speed and toughness of a lion, lead by the smart head of a man, with the sting of a scorpion is about as good of a description of this drop as any I can think of. love it!


Wow, i missed that description of the name. Its awesome. I just called it that because on the units Manta Drop ability with it being the Core of every army list. But now the name has a dual purpose.


Wait... it wasn't intentional? Wow. But yeah... The Manticore is a mythical beast, just like I hope these drops become.

10/10 will be sharing name. (Thanks for your accidental genius ;) )

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#23 » Jun 19 2017 09:36

Yes i know that the 'manticore' is a mythical creature, and that it was alluded to in the intentional Pun. I just hadn't drilled down into the individual aspects of the manticore and how they relate.

Still... mostly 'accidental-genius'

JustGreg
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Posts: 90

Re: The MantaCore

Post#24 » Jun 19 2017 09:46

Lechai Skull wrote:Yes i know that the 'manticore' is a mythical creature, and that it was alluded to in the intentional Pun. I just hadn't drilled down into the individual aspects of the manticore and how they relate.

Still... mostly 'accidental-genius'


Ah gotcha, that's what I thought, too good to be a complete coincidence. Well, glad to provide a fun breakdown :D

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thesnailmaster
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#25 » Jun 20 2017 09:04

Panzer wrote:Especially because we can do pseudo null-deployment with Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. Those don't get placed in reserves, but they get replaced after deployment. :D



They don't get placed after deployment, they deploy like normal but can be anywhere outside of 12" and enemy deployment zone, I will say that I've been enjoying using them in 8th so far, they are much more survivable and great for homing beacons and holding objectives.

JustGreg
Shas'Saal
Posts: 90

Re: The MantaCore

Post#26 » Jun 21 2017 12:58

thesnailmaster wrote:
Panzer wrote:Especially because we can do pseudo null-deployment with Stealth Suits and Ghostkeel. Those don't get placed in reserves, but they get replaced after deployment. :D



They don't get placed after deployment, they deploy like normal but can be anywhere outside of 12" and enemy deployment zone, I will say that I've been enjoying using them in 8th so far, they are much more survivable and great for homing beacons and holding objectives.


Yeah it's a bit of a restrictive difference on some deployment maps huh... Would be nice if they also had the vanguard move after deploying. A lot of other infiltrator types don't have the "not in their deployment zone" clause...

At least, we can save those guys for last and plop them in weird and wonderful spots.

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Lechai Skull
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Re: The MantaCore

Post#27 » Jun 21 2017 01:20

Well at least for standard deployment maps like DoW and HaA, not in the enemy deployment zone is still 12" past the halfway line. It still needs holes in their lines etc.

Quarters is very interesting, and because of how close the enemy can deploy to your zone. It opens up a LOT of the rest of the table for stealth suits.

JustGreg
Shas'Saal
Posts: 90

Re: The MantaCore

Post#28 » Jun 21 2017 01:34

Lechai Skull wrote:Well at least for standard deployment maps like DoW and HaA, not in the enemy deployment zone is still 12" past the halfway line. It still needs holes in their lines etc.

Quarters is very interesting, and because of how close the enemy can deploy to your zone. It opens up a LOT of the rest of the table for stealth suits.


That's true. On quartered maps, you could probably expect anything trying to rush combat to deploy in the front centre, meaning far flanked infiltrators may force them to turn back or lose their home field... Should be fun.

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