Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Discuss both Auxiliary, Allied and Aliens tactics
Meshuggah
Shas
Posts: 12

Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#1 » Apr 03 2017 03:52

:P In Tau, we are strong!

I got my first chance to play a game using a friends Blood Angel Army. He had a 10 man Death Company that did not get focused down. First off, I fear Powerswords more than ever now. I was getting sliced up until I finally focused them down. These guys are absolute monsters. I should have killed them at least 10 times, but they just kept rolling their feel no pains and succeeding. I know this is part of the die roll, but the fact they had this capability to survive feels like if I don't take them down before they reach my squads, it's over.

My question is regarding the best attacks to really bring them down before they reach me. I was thinking plenty of markerlights and everyone focusing them down. I also realize my lack of experience playing the tabletop is keeping me from thinking outside the box. Any suggestions for when he brings his 20 man Death Company at me? He mentioned that after he saw my army, he's going all out. Well, i'm not going to go quietly into the night

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Mirth
Shas'La
Posts: 83

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#2 » Apr 03 2017 04:31

Really depends on what you have/are fielding, Meshuggah.

For instance, if you have a Stormsurge with Pule Driver Cannon- two or three markerlights and one pie-plate later, splat, there went most of that 20-man blob without armor or feel no pain saves (due to double strength and Instant Death). ;) However, if you're fresh out of those, quantity of fire will bring them down. As long as they are T4 (and I'm pretty sure they are) then S8 will remove their FNP as well.

However, in most cases you have a choice about how to deal with them. If they are armed primarily with power weapons and no power fists/thunder hammers, then you could have a single Riptide tank them to kingdom come (probably) as long as you brought Stimms- the armor save combined with FNP will hold the unit in place, effectively tar-pitting it, for quite a chunk of the game. Alternatively one or two overcharged Ion Accelerators will have a very similar effect to the Pulse Driver on the Stormsurge.

Your options are essentially get high strength/low AP weapons to overcome the armor and Feel No Pain saves, or just volume of fire him down. Bubble wrap can be very important for keeping your bigger models alive, so use it well!

Hope that helps! :)
When we forget we are soldiers, we stop fighting.

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Neffarious
Shas
Posts: 17

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#3 » Apr 03 2017 06:58

It is true that the Riptide's Nova Charged Ion Accelerator will get the job done, but the Stormsurge is the "optimal" choice for the points. While the Nova Charged Ion Accelerator can fire a Str9 Ap2 Large Blast at 72" it also gets hot, which can suck rolling 1's against a 20 man squad. The Stormsurge can fire its Pulse Driver twice at Str10 Ap2 with the same range, and does not get hot. Thats 2x the shots that have +1 Str each and do not have the chance to injure you on a 1. Furthermore, the Stormsurge can anchor and fire that twice for 4x the shots of a Riptide. If you pick the Blast Cannon, you can fire two direct Str D Ap1 shots at up to 10 inches, but they are not blasts so it wont be as good against blobs of guys. If you feel you DO need a direct (non blast) Str-D weapon it has those 4 destroyer missiles.

Both the Riptide and Stoemsurge can pack TL-SMS, but the Stormsurge also gets 4d6 cluster rockets, and a Twin Linked "whatever"

Although it cannot Overwatch like the Riptide, the Stormsurge gets to Stomp in close combat which has a 1/6 chance of simply "removing" models from play, no save taken. Just the threat of that could solve some of your assault problems.

A stormsurge with a shield generator on it is 410 pts, cheaper than two riptides with Stims (215 each), but the Stormsurge gets a 4+ invuln, whereas the Riptides get a 5+ and the Stormsurge can out dakka them both with Anchors deployed, while targeting multiple enemy units in the same turn without need of a Target Lock.
:D You can't spell slaughter without laughter :D

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2672

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#4 » Apr 03 2017 10:35

Lmao you don't use the nova-charged ion accelerator. :D You use the regular overcharged ion accelerator. S8 AP2 is more than enough. You neither need Ordenance nor S9. :roll:
Alternatively a Ion Cannon Hammerhead overcharging his weapon works just as fine (S8 AP3 large blast) but is overall just worse than the Riptide obviously.

A thing: be happy when he plays a 20 man Death Company unit and even more when he puts powerswords in. That's far from being efficient and even overkill for most of the stuff he can attack in your army. Makes it just an even more juicy target to shoot at. ;)
Some Markerlights to ignore cover, Ion pie plate from Riptide or Hammerhead, laugh at him. Rinse and Repeat. You don't even need to increase your BS when shooting against such a huge unit.

Alternatively you can try that very expensive (but efficient!) suicide unit of 10 Breacher + Darkstrider. Drive close with your Devilfish, disembark, add some Markerlights, shoot with 20 S6 AP3 shots at his now T3 Deathcompany, laugh, cry when anything survives and charges you, laugh when you kill something in Overwatch, cry again when anything survives because it WILL kill that unit. :D

Riptides won't tank them for that long. The golden rule for Deathcompany is to take a fist or hammer for every 7 guys. Means he comes with 12 S9 AP2 (6 S8 AP2 after the charge) attacks at you if you didn't manage to kill those before. On top of the 5 S5 attacks per model of course.

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Mirth
Shas'La
Posts: 83

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#5 » Apr 04 2017 11:50

Hmm, that's true about the Death Company shredding Riptides if they are equipped with that many THammers/Power Fists- I was not aware of their golden rule. ;)

I do agree about the overcharged Ion Accelerator- it will wipe them out in droves. Honestly the Death Company is a massive unit (easy to shoot at with templates/pie plates) that is worth a lot of points. We can't fight it, nor should we try- just shoot the massive thing. As always, watch your target priority- if something is going to charge you then it is usually best to make sure it dies, but if you know it will charge you next turn (and nothing is charging you this turn) then definitely whittle down the major threats as best as you're able. But 500+ point units have to hit a lot of things to make back their points, and if they melt as easily as Death Company will, then count your blessings- at least he isn't running at you with Thunderwolf Cav, lead by a super-tanky wolf Lord. ;)
When we forget we are soldiers, we stop fighting.

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Jefffar
Shas'Vre
Posts: 1010

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#6 » Apr 04 2017 01:03

Deathstars, of which Death Company is a classic example (that hasn't necessarily aged well) as a rule need to be drowned in wounds. You can either swarm them with mid strength shots and count on pure volume to overcome the saves or you can hit them with high strength low AP and bypass as many saves as possible.

Either way, the math remains the same. The more wounds you put on the unit, the less models make it to our lines.

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 743

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#7 » Apr 04 2017 03:59

Take 5 markerlights

Add Riptide, Ion Accelerator. Use 3 markerlights to go to BS6 so you can re-roll the Gets Hot. Use the other 2 to ignore cover.

Repeat until problem goes away :biggrin: Honestly it is hard to miss a target that large.

Basic massed shooting can get the job done on average - but if your opponent is rolling hot on the saves you really want some high quality firepower that denies him the chance.

We have lots of things which are a living nightmare for expensive T4 models such as those. Massed Seeker missiles from Skyrays, Ion blasts from Hammerheads, massed Fusion Blasters etc.

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#8 » Apr 05 2017 04:26

Neffarious wrote: The Stormsurge can fire its Pulse Driver twice at Str10 Ap2 with the same range, and does not get hot. Thats 2x the shots that have +1 Str each and do not have the chance to injure you on a 1. Furthermore, the Stormsurge can anchor and fire that twice for 4x the shots of a Riptide.

Pulse Driver shoots once. If you anchor, it shoots twice. Not four times.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2672

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#9 » Apr 05 2017 04:34

Unicornsilovethem wrote:
Neffarious wrote: The Stormsurge can fire its Pulse Driver twice at Str10 Ap2 with the same range, and does not get hot. Thats 2x the shots that have +1 Str each and do not have the chance to injure you on a 1. Furthermore, the Stormsurge can anchor and fire that twice for 4x the shots of a Riptide.

Pulse Driver shoots once. If you anchor, it shoots twice. Not four times.

^this

The Pulse Driver Cannon is the 72" S10 AP2 Ordnance 1 Large Blast weapon and the Pulse Blastcannon is the one with different profiles and Heavy2 (10"-20" S10 AP3 Heavy2, Blast would be the interesting one in this case).

Since the Deathcompany will be close very fast the Blastcannon is actually a real alternative to the Drive Cannon even with only a small Blast as long as you don't scatter WAY off....but Markerlights help with that.

I'd still go with the Drive Cannon though in case he puts a Captain with Artificer armor infront to soak up all those AP3 wounds.

Also I just checked and Deathcompany can only have a maximum of 15 guys (which is already ~350 points with Jump Packs and without any fancy weapons). If he really plays a 20 guy unit then he is breaking the rules....most likely without even knowing it. Maybe you should tell him that. I mean playing 2x10 is more efficient than 1x20 anyway, so he should be thankful actually. :P

So for the points of 20 DC with fancy weapons you can easily bring two Riptides. Markerlights are excluded from the cost because you should have them in your list anyway. Sounds more efficient for the task than an anchored Stormsurge to me. ^^

Meshuggah
Shas
Posts: 12

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#10 » Apr 10 2017 03:51

Firstly, thank all of you for the replies.

Secondly, I won against him this weekend in a 1000 point game. By round 5, I had taken out most of his DC. His thunderhammer landed on the tank I took out and he splattered against everything. I managed to whittle him down to 3 left. He only took 5 this time though. I shot my broadside, commander, and bodyguard's weapons at him. He was on fire with rolls and passed almost all of his feel no pain. I used my Ghostkeel to scare him into attacking him while my Commander got the objective. They got locked into combat at the end of round 4 with me receiving VP for holding 2 objective points and line breaker.

After my very first game with an actual army, I have learned a whole new set of strategies and problems. Now I need to ask if 'Submunition rounds' for my gunship is worth it, because it sure didn't feel like it with my rolls. I couldn't Godzilla that game. I also need to remember my special points. In fact, I need to start memorizing everything. I spent half the time in the book instead of playing. I think i'll transfer everything to OneNote for my army comp and use that.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2672

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#11 » Apr 10 2017 03:55

To be completely honest? Nah Submunition rounds are rarely worth it. That counts for the Railhead alltogether. Ten out of ten times the Ionhead is worth his points more than the Railhead. Even as Longstrike against Astra Militarum I had to learn the hard truth that a single S10 AP1 shot is not that great even with BS5, Prefered Enemy and Tank Hunter.

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Unicornsilovethem
Shas'Saal
Posts: 278

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#12 » Apr 11 2017 02:40

Panzer wrote:To be completely honest? Nah Submunition rounds are rarely worth it. That counts for the Railhead alltogether. Ten out of ten times the Ionhead is worth his points more than the Railhead. Even as Longstrike against Astra Militarum I had to learn the hard truth that a single S10 AP1 shot is not that great even with BS5, Prefered Enemy and Tank Hunter.

Three Railheads together actually are. Preferred Enemy and Tank Hunters unit-wide special rules, and thanks to Fire Team they all have BS5. The probability of not blowing up a Leman Russ is pretty low.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2672

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#13 » Apr 11 2017 02:57

Unicornsilovethem wrote:
Panzer wrote:To be completely honest? Nah Submunition rounds are rarely worth it. That counts for the Railhead alltogether. Ten out of ten times the Ionhead is worth his points more than the Railhead. Even as Longstrike against Astra Militarum I had to learn the hard truth that a single S10 AP1 shot is not that great even with BS5, Prefered Enemy and Tank Hunter.

Three Railheads together actually are. Preferred Enemy and Tank Hunters unit-wide special rules, and thanks to Fire Team they all have BS5. The probability of not blowing up a Leman Russ is pretty low.

That's right. If you go all out, you'll have a 420p unit that is actually likely to destroy a Leman Russ...which costs only about 150p.
It would be more than sad otherwise. :D

But yeah a unit of 3 together with Longstrike are an actual thread to other tanks. However such a unit would be dedicated to anti-AV so Submunition rounds wouldn't make much sense there anyway.

Meshuggah
Shas
Posts: 12

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#14 » Apr 11 2017 09:50

Panzer wrote:To be completely honest? Nah Submunition rounds are rarely worth it. That counts for the Railhead alltogether. Ten out of ten times the Ionhead is worth his points more than the Railhead. Even as Longstrike against Astra Militarum I had to learn the hard truth that a single S10 AP1 shot is not that great even with BS5, Prefered Enemy and Tank Hunter.


new person question: ionhead?

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2672

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#15 » Apr 11 2017 10:53

Meshuggah wrote:
Panzer wrote:To be completely honest? Nah Submunition rounds are rarely worth it. That counts for the Railhead alltogether. Ten out of ten times the Ionhead is worth his points more than the Railhead. Even as Longstrike against Astra Militarum I had to learn the hard truth that a single S10 AP1 shot is not that great even with BS5, Prefered Enemy and Tank Hunter.


new person question: ionhead?

Hammerhead with the Ion Cannon. Likewise Raihead is a Hammerhead with the Railgun.
Such terminology gets used for a lot of units online (Railside/Missileside for the Broadside, Iontide/Bursttide for the Riptide, etc.)

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nic
Kroot'La
Posts: 743

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#16 » Apr 11 2017 02:04

Panzer wrote:
But yeah a unit of 3 together with Longstrike are an actual thread to other tanks. However such a unit would be dedicated to anti-AV so Submunition rounds wouldn't make much sense there anyway.


Much as I love the iconic Hammerhead as things stand in the closing days of 7th edition the Gunfort does the job better than a unit of 3 Hammerheads. You can pop the unit of your choice on to gain the benefit of the special rules you need and it is of course a much cheaper way to put three railguns on the table. A concentrated volley from all 3 gains Armourbane which is verging on overkill against any but the heaviest vehicles.

I still like the railgun itself, it is not mathematically the best thing in many cases but its ability to blow things up can be very relevant. If facing Ynnari assault vehicles you really want to get that explodes result as glancing them to death just results in the passengers charging into your lines in the middle of your own shooting phase.

Getting back to the original point of the topic, the railgun is very good at doubling out even tough (biker, thunderwolf etc) units with FNP and denying them any save. Gunrigs come with free submunitions but those are much more for clearing out medium/light infantry than killing dangerous elite units. The issue is always low volume of shots - that is still an issue for a gunfort but at least it is not hugely expensive for those 3 shots.

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Panzer
Shas'La
Posts: 2672

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#17 » Apr 11 2017 02:08

I agree. The gunfort has the same problems as the Railhead but its saving grace is that it's far far cheaper.

SergeantHammer
Shas
Posts: 13

Re: Feel no pain and how to overcome it

Post#18 » Apr 12 2017 12:47

BUUUUUT, The gunrig can also carry 12 bodies, one of which should be a fire blade to man the railgun.

3 gunrigs to make up a fort = 35 fire warriors

35 bodies, 11 of which get to double tap from the fire blade = 46 str 5 AP 5 shots at 30", 81 shots at 15".

That gunline coupled with 3 str 10 AP 1 armourbane shots with twin linked BS 5, solid backbone of any army.

The ability to move that kind of fire power is what outstrips the hammer head.

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