(The Lower Concourse companion thread to this one is The Cadre of M'yen Shi (An assembly and painting project))

Greetings ATT. As stated in my new member post after playing Warhammer Fantasy for 10 years (Bretonnians) and 40K for about 5 (Eldar who will be sold and Inquisition/Imperial Guard/Space Marines) I will be starting a new Tau army after a long evolution of stuff. As I'm a parent on a budget, and mentally prefer building a knowledge base and planning thoroughly before embarking on a new venture (after which I improvise heavily and fly by the seat of my pants), I shopped around on the internet to find a good site for Tau knowledge, tactics and advice to help make sure I do things correctly the first time and don't shoot myself in the foot. I also plan on using this same post down the road to discuss any problems or strategies I run into while trying to build the Cadre or use it in the future. Does that make it a blog?

After contemplating a Tau army for several years and reading some of the Tactica here to reinforce things I was leaning to (primarily The Positional Relay battle-tested and Units: FireStorm Battlesuit by eiglepulper and White Knight, respectively) I have decided to do a cadre centered around a Positional Relay System. Since I can't post comments in the Tactica board yet to check on a commander configuration it'll have to be done here in terms of analysis with the rest of the prospective army and maybe can be continued elsewhere at a later date.

Now based on reading it seems that most people have ran into problems trying to either a) keep the commander outside LoS and still alive but b) still trying to equip them to do hordes of damage to the enemy. I am considering a rather simple alternative that might occur to me based on experience with other armies.

Shas'el with AFP, Positional Relay System, Shield Generator, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 shield drones.

Why the AFP? Why no "traditional battlesuit weapons (missile pods, plasma rifles, etc)?" Because the AFP is a guess range weapon that does not require line of sight in order to be effective. This should allow the commander to maintain offensive fire at enemy troops as well as denying cover saves (both good things in 5th edition as troops are the scoring units and cover is everywhere) as well as keeping the relay alive. Veterans from other games like Battletech probably remember some Mech's whose utility was not in offensive fire, but in assisting other Mech's to do their job, like the IS Raven mech. Similar to an IG Commander, this unit is designed to not deal damage itself, but coordinate and maintain the rest of the army in a useful fashion, enabling other units to deep strike to where they are needed, when they are needed, to eliminate enemy targets and herd the opposing force into kill pockets. Adding the shield generator and defensive drones and running in a Monat configuration utilizing JSJ and cover should enable the unit to stay out of line of sight and danger for much of the game.

Now I was already planning on using a FireStorm Crisis suit even before I knew what the name of the configuration was, but after reading White Knight's academy piece I'm still firmly in the FireStorm camp. One thing I've noticed with other armies is a key to success is maintaining superior fire while being able to advance and keep range. I can remember games where a group of 2 or 3 dread's were able to roll a flank simply because they could advance 6" and still fire a 24" range assault cannon against troops armed with bolters and melta weapons, due to superior range on the move. I LOVE assault weapons due to their ability to always fire full capacity at range, on the move. A BC has 3 shots at 18" as opposed to a PR which is less effective until a 12" range, even with the suits relentless-esque ability for rapid fire weapons.

One key seems to be using Pathfinders with a Devilfish in order to use their marker to improve the accuracy of deepstriking units. I also like Stealthsuits (just neat), and Broadsides.

So.. with the goal of having an effective force, without redundant units, that will allow me to play a usable army and be expandable later, I am hoping to use the following forces and am hoping that the community here will be able to help me iron out any wrinkles in army planning BEFORE I buy boxes, glue things together, then find out I was completely retarded.

Ahem...

Sash'el w/ AFP, positional relay, shield generator, HW drone controller w/ 2 shield drones

1 FireStorm Crisis suit
3 man Stealth Team w/ fusion gun

4 Pathfinders w/ Devilfish

6 man FW w/ pulse rifles
6 man FW w/ pulse carbines, EMP grenades

Broadside w/ ASS

Down the road I would bulk up the size of the FW teams and Pathfinders and add a third troop choice, probably add a FA drone squad (another deep striker), bulk up the Crisis team to 3 suits, and add additional Broadsides. Possibly mechanizing the FW's to have potential enhanced mobility and redeployment.

Are there any obvious pieces of wargear I'm forgetting? I was considering additional Crisis suits, possibly FireForges, to help deep strike attack enemy armor.

I am definitely trying to avoid "Please rate my list so I know how 1337 I am," however when just starting and not wanting to make mistakes, I suppose I have to start somewhere Are there other potential deep striking units that could prove useful with this approach? I figure that starting the FW teams and BASS as a firebase, with the pulse rifles covering an advance by the carbines and shielding the BASS, utilizing the commander's positional relay to position other forces (which sounds so much better with that second Crisis suit team...) to destroy key units and maneuver the enemy army to where a massed firefight will eliminate it should work, as well as letting me claim objectives later in the game, or strategically deny them to the enemy.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

edit: corrected a typo that somehow sneaked past my fingers, adjusted Post Subject, added link to Lower Concourse Thread

although list reccomendation is not really the thing here at ATT, we can talk about tactics a bit if you like?
and the tactic I read about pulse rifles covering the carbine warriors, it's neat but a bit ineefective. a 6 man squad is likely to be targetted (since they are your scoring units they will be the main target) and will either be dead or run in 1 round of shooting. back it up by using a fish to ceep them from harm and score in the end. or take 12, upgrade one to 'ui, bond them, and maybe use a ethereal to make them fearless. that will keep you in business. drop them on a scoring counter and they will be hard to get rid of by shooting them. the fish provides mobility to zoom to objectives later in the game (so keep the fish hiding). and kroot! they can outflank, and in large groups they form a formidable distraction).

the monat's shooting will be ineffective in my oppinion cuz it's alone. and deepstriking them will make it more vulnerable. the thing IMHO is that I always use suits to shoot from afar (missiles to krak transports or annoy big beasts). if they get close, then the extra weapon comes in (burst, flamer, ...).
monats are used for drastic measures (mostly to kill off that annoying tank hiding behind cover to loop shells into your lines). use them in groups of at least , or a more drastic configuration that makes a difference (so a solid plan has to be made of what the suit has to do in the game and how it does it best).

stealths are great, but be aware that they "only" shoot 18". so that's relatively close to enemy lines. so being that close to the line, they have to do their job very effectively, and that means taking the most shots in the shortest time. so double the team, or take at least 4 or 5. they are likely to be targeted by assaulters. so make sure you back them up and don't place them on a lone flank. use them in addition to a flank. TA's are good since then you get more hits.

commander looks good. I think he can manage.

I feel that you are trying to make a competitive list with tau, to be playing in a relative short period of tie and money. I know the feeling, believe me. but tau needs some patience, and skill. it's not an army to be played lightly like chaos or marines, which are allrounders. so get some games with only 1000 pts, or proxies. honestly, I bought boxes that I wanted to use, and not what's the most effective in the game. I love suits, so I bought the rapid insertion force which I wholely fitted in my army (I converted one to be a commander, maybe I'll post my army later on). I didn't win so much games, but I love playing tau, and I'll learn (and read a lot here at ATT).

so some summaries: - use more troops, but make them effective and lasting (fearless, transport)
or annoying (kroot)
- use your suits to their most effect (groups for more shots, loners to deepstr and
shoot what it can handle (veehicles that will be killed in one round of shooting
from the monat so it wouldn't have been in vain to go out there alone).
- more stealths.
- play your own style, and enjoy. let us know how you do hey.

Immediately begin work on purchasing a three man Deathrain team... I think most will agree that among all our choices, this suit has the most accurate and deadly outfitting of any crisis team. 6 BS4 Twin-linked missiles at 36" is effective against almost any target. It may not lack the AP of a Plasma rifle, but I can not emphasize the value of 6 TL shots at 36". Strength 8(or 7?) is pretty nifty too, and I find I can put at least one unsaved wound on even a carnifex with a team with ease...

Tactics is my favorite subject It's always better to listen to those that have gone before so you don't make a fool of yourself trying to learn to fly...


Personally, I hate undersized units. I don't like them, and I almost always field units full size unless its a situation where if they're full sized they no longer fit into transports (Sisters of Battle, for example). The reason I was contemplating two units of 6 FW is to make a viable list, without selling an arm and a leg, while still being able to play in games and learn how the army works. Ideally, I'd make them each a 12 man squad, but keep the weapon types varied, at least upon initial reflection. The other potential useful aspect is the compliment of the weapon ranges. It appears that the 30" range of the pulse rifles should allow the carbine wielding troops to be the first line, supported by the second line of pulse rifle troops, supported by the Broadside. Additionally, if any units begin to fail pinning tests by the underslung grenade launchers, that keeps them stationary for an additional turn of shooting from the troops in the rear. It's not as much a matter of numbers, as if I just multiply everything already listed above by 2 it's the same basic tactics and strategies, simply more troops and monetary investment before deciding if something would work or not. The idea of mechanizing the FW does sound appealing however for late turn objective snagging. The only skimmers I have experience with are Wave Serpents and Falcons though in terms of transports, and those are both fast. How realistic is it to expect a Devilfish to be able to swoop around the table?


The above comment about being on a budget and hating undersized units applies here as well. I would field three by preference, one initally to learn how it works and see if "The Plan" of utilizing deep striking from the Positional Relay is workable.


Oo.. interesting fine print option I missed on my first read through... a few thoughts with this, however.
It increases the suits cost by nearly 33%. Is it really worth having a single wound model weighing in at about 40 points to achieve a 16.7% increased hit ratio? Again, questions of unit size are as above.. I'd love to have more, but I'm trying to see what works on a small scale before applying it to a large scale and grow into it.

I wonder if anyone has opinions on Stealth Suits effectiveness at armor hunting versus regular anti-infantry. It may be cheaper to have a full squad of Stealths drop behind enemy lines and snipe armor while using cover from their stealth field...


Good to see I managed one thing right on the first effort of a plan I was considering um..Stimulant Injectors to to help maintain the period of which the Positional Relay would be effective.


That's one thing I'm not worried about actually... my primary experience is with the Inquisition and Imperial Guard, so having Power Armor Syndrome isn't likely to occur

My biggest worries are about missing something so fundamental to realistically using the Tau lists and armies.. an intrinsic playstyle thing, that is different fundamentally than the Imperial armies and thus my brain and personal experience.


You know.. I didn't think of that. Something about twin-linking the weapons to specialize in one role seems funny somehow. Maybe because twin-linking doesn't actually double the shots, and then increasing the BS to 4 actually decreases the value of the twin-link. I'll ponder this though and see if it would fit into "The Plan."

Thank you for your replies and thoughts on the basic concept, it helps a lot to have other people bring up points and ideas of the overall usage of things.

This is a paradox of duality, you see. Yes, Twin linking kindof negates the need for a TA, but ONLY to a degree. You see, Crisis teams are small, and comparatively, have lower volume of fire than almost any other unit we can take. Also, they are our ONLY heavy weapons mounted on "infantry" and not tanks. So you see, when they shoot, they NEED TO HIT. Twin linking and giving a TA to them means you are more or less guaranteed 6 hits each turn. Throwing numbers to the wind and hoping that your TL weapon will hit the second time is simply too risky.

The reason they need to specalize like that is because of the dillution affect. Mixing weapons in squads means they die faster and are generally less effective against each type of enemy(ie a anti tank/horde/TEQ team of three is only 33% effective against those units, respectivelly). Also, ask any orc or IG armor player what he thinks of the Deathrain team(TL MP and TA) and you will get a "...STAY AWAY FROM MA TANK, FOOOO..." kind of answer. No other unit(well, for the cost) in the game can provide such devastating, accurate firepower AND avoid getting shot back.


Also, you asked about the Devilfish. It is quite "swoopy" as you asked, thanks to multitrackers and Disruption pods. Good armor as well means that it can swoop around to that objective and contest/claim it with little fear. For the most part, my FWs never get out of the DF if they can claim that objective around turn 3 or 4.

Lots of opinions seem to flying about already on this thread so I'll add a few of my own...



A couple of things here which I disagree with: Remember that with JSJ, stealths effective range is actually 24 inches which means that they can potentially be much safer than their 18" shooting range might initially imply. I agree that generally teams of 4 or 6 are best, but in smaller games, smaller teams can be effective for harassment. Second, target arrays are largely a waste on stealth suits in my opinion. Buy three target arrays and you gain absolutely no greater killing power than if you had just added another stealthsuit to your team. The mathmatical ratio of "points spent" to "firepower gained "is exactly the same for both choices. However, you also gain another wound in the team with the extra body. Unless, for some reason, you already have 6 stealth suits in your team and still want better quality dakka, TAs shouldn't really be considered. Even then, I'd just point a markerlight in their direction at that point.


I agree to a certain extent, And I see what you are trying to accomplish here, but if you are just starting out, I'd recommend using a cheaper commander for the smaller points games. He's a bit over-powered for anything under 1000 points in my opinion.

Honestly, in keeping with the discusion of appropriate units for the points bracket you are playing with, I have a recommendation. Decide what points bracket you want to take this army to, (say 1500 points for example) and then back-track your list from that point so that you know what units to pick from for your smaller lists. I say this because a positional relay-based list doesn't really start to shine until at least a thousand points where you start to have enough units to bring onto the table from reserves. Making a list at a larger points value allows you to taylor your smaller lists from the units you know you will be using eventually anyway. For someone on a tight budget, you also have the important benefit of not picking units early on that might not eventually have any place in your final list. Just something to consider.




As Shas'O J'Kaara Nan has already mentioned, Deathrains are very effective suits point-for-point. I won't go so far as to say that they are the most accurate and deadly loadout, since most suits have their strengths against specific targets, but they are fairly flexible and efficient and certainly worthy of consideration. However, I'm not so sure that they are the best choice for a Positional Relay list since I'd rather have them on the table from the beginning with their good range and strength in order to pop transports where possible. It really depends on the synergy of the other units you choose.

Regarding troops in transports, I really like having mechanized teams with rifles. Devilfish are AV12 and, with a five point upgrade which grants a permanent 4+ cover save, they are really quite durable (though generally less so than Eldar skimmers). Add in a multi-tracker and you can move 12 inches and still fire your main weapon and your drones for a total of 5 pulse shots. While they aren't quite as "swoopy" as Eldar skimmers with star engines (D-fsh can only ever move 12 inches) they are still a great transport option. I'm of the opinion that almost every Tau army should have at least one mechanized Fire Warrior team with rifles.

I think that's about all I have for now. Like I said, I recommend that you give us a 1500 point "wish list" so we have a better idea where you want to eventually take this list. That'll help us make suggestions for your current, more modest aspirations.

Cheers,
Xeones

So on the topic of my last post, perhaps a better wording would be "most accurate, long ranged and *versatile* outfitting"? BS 4 and twin linked means you will hit with every shot unless you are lame with dice to an extreme IMO. Str7 is enough to deny saves to anything short of a MEQ, AP4 is decent if your dealing with non marines that are still T4 and 36"/42" effective range is one of our best ranged choices. On top of that, anything short of AV13 is suspect to getting popped quite often(of six hits, on AV12, one will penetrate and one will glance, statistically) and most players find it easy to get around to softer side armor thanks to JSJ. And again, in addition, they are premier for dealing with high toughness models such as carnifexes, since Str7 will wound even that T7 carnifex on a 4+ or a hive tyrant on a 3+. Since these models are rare, devoting a single Deathrain team and a railgun to such a model means it could see no more than two-three turns. This allows our pulse weapons to deal with other, squishier targets.

No, a Deathrain cant punch as hard as an Aurora team at 18" or knock down hordes like a Heatwave deep striking. However, it can do those things to a degree WHILE also being a potential long range all rounder. I have tried taking a "no Deathrain" list before, and always find it underpowered at +36" by heavy bolters and star cannons. Try a proxy of three TL missile pods/TA in your next game, I promise you will like the results.

EDIT: BTW, my last game against an IG player saw the Deathrain pop a chimera, leman russ and then instakill 6 stormtroopers per turn for 2 turns and THEN popped 3 sentinels in one turn...just to show you what a well fielded Deathrain is capable of.

I really like deathrains too. I run a team of 3, and also a team of 3 with TL plasmas and A's. but they are expensive and do **** the whole game (unless playing deathwing).
they won't pack as much shots as fireknifes, but are more accurate and deadly to transports and big beasts.

about the stealths: surely you'd better take another suit instead of TA's, but believe me, a 5 man squad with TA's in infiltration, is very deadly. hitting on 3's is a big difference, especially if you play against marines which negate AP5. then you have to go for accurate, and LOTS of shots. harrasment is good, but they must make a difference and a big enough threat to be a focus point for the opponent. and I forgot the JSJ so indeed they are effective at 24". but be aware, some armies (fleet bugs) are really fast and will consume them already in turn 1 or 2. so still they have to make a difference and be handled with care.

Genius! I totally forgot about working backwards

Alright, after reading your other comments and contemplating a bit and doing some math, I ended up with a 2004 point list (aren't bonding knives redundant now with 5th edition? This list may require some tweaking here and there, but it seemed to have what I wanted in it):

Shas'el w/ AFP, Positional Relay, Shield Generator, Stim Injector, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 Shield Drones

FireStorm Crisis Ta'ro'cha (3 men) w/ Team Leader, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 Gun Drones
FireForge-8 Crisis Monat (1 man) w/ Team Leader, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 Shield Drones
Stealth Team (6 men) w/ Team Leader, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 Marker Drones

Firewarrior Team (12 men) w/ Pulse Rifles, Shas'ui, Photon Grenades
Firewarrior Team (12 men) w/ Pulse Rifles, Shas'ui, Photon Grenades
-Devilfish Transport w/ Decoy Launcher, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, 2 Seeker Missiles
Firewarrior Team (12 men) w/ Pulse Carbines, Shas'ui, Photon Grenades

Gun Drone Squadron (6 drones)
Gun Drone Squadron (6 drones)
Pathfinders (8 men) w/ Shas'ui, Photon Grenades
-Devilfish Transport w/ Decoy Launcher, Disruption Pod, Multi-Tracker, 2 Seeker Missiles

Broadside Team (2 men) w/ ASS, Team Leader, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 Shield Drones
Broadside Team (2 men) w/ ASS, Team Leader, HW Drone Controller w/ 2 Shield Drones

Minor tweaking may take place, but these units seemed fun, characterful, and neat. Vespid, Kroot and things can always come later, but didn't seem to fit as well into "The Plan" as these units.

edit: minor formatting, edited from comments from other ATT members

beware of the pathfinders. do you intend to use them for markerlights? you gave them EMP grenades, but I think you can spare the points cuz are you really going to charge any vehicles with them?
and the TA on the fish of the pathfinders is not really necessary I think. that one burstcannon isn't going to make a difference in the shooting face, so maybe not spend points on it. (just a suggestion hey, no means to be negative about the list). these points you can spare, maybe take a ethereal for it?
I'm planning on using him for the first time, but I think he may be usefull because he makes the unit he attaches to "fearless", so those 12 warriors without a fish can guard an objective and stay there even with casualties.

Why? He's certainly going to want some in his list if nothing else but for the D-fish marker beacon's ability to re-roll deep strikes. With a Positional Relay list that's fairly important I think. I agree with you on the upgrade though.

***Also wiele, please be so kind as to edit your previous posts to include proper capitalization and spelling. It's looking like your efforts to follow the Membership Primers are beginning to drop a bit.

This looks like a fairly good start. I can't really take the time at the moment to comment on everything, so I'll just give a couple of quick impressions on the list overall.
First, it concerns me that you are only utilizing a single heavy support slot for a 2k list. I realize that you've got the Fireforge (presumably deep-striking) and you've added EMP grenades to a couple of infantry teams, but I can't help but think that you should consider fleshing out your heavy slots a bit more. Generally, I would recommend that you either find a few more points to wedge a hammerhead into your list somewhere. or perhaps another broadside so that you could run two 2-man teams. Maybe the games in your area are a bit light on armor so you might get away with leaving things as they are, but you'll have to be the judge of that. Second, it seems to me that you've gone a bit heavy on the upgrades for your list. Don't become drawn in by the allure of all the shiny toys you can add to your units. A few sprinkled in here and there for flavor and fun is okay, but this list almost seems more like a 1500 point list that's been artificially inflated to 2k. I think you could probably drop a few upgrades, add more units and come out stronger for it.

Another recommendation is to give your stealthsuit 'vre a markerlight for 10 points. That'll give you 3 in that squad and if you make him a team leader instead of a 'vre, you'll not be losing any utility from him (just a few close combat stats which you don't want him using anyway) and he'll be 5 points cheaper. Another option is that for an additional 9 points or so, you could spread out your drones to multiple stealthsuits so that one lucky bolter shot at the 'vre doesn't take all your markerlights with him. Remember that if the model with a drone controller is killed, the accompanying drones are removed as well. So the new set up might look like this:

Stealthsuit Team
Team leader (markerlight)
2x Shas'ui (Drone controller + 1 marker drone each)
3x Shas'ui (Black Sun Filter)

That's an extra 14 points on an already expensive unit and sort of goes contrary to my earlier admonition to reduce you wargear, but it's a possibility.

That's about all I can say for now. Lookin' good so far though.

Both actually very good suggestions. The Pathfinders are indeed there for their all-important reroll to help pinpoint deep strikes. Fluffwise I see the Pathfinders as the forward recon, followed by the untransported Firewarriors and Broadsides, along with the Shas'el. The other deep striking forces are then dropped on the opponent's head depending on where good spots are. The Broadsides should in theory force enemy armor to move out of their LoS or be destroyed, which is when I drop the FireForge-8 deep struck behind said enemy armor to destroy it. The Stealth suits can be infiltrated or deep struck based upon terrain, and the Drone Squadrons are deep striking harrassment forces to help herd the enemy or draw attention away from my Firewarrior teams. The mechanized Firewarriors should allow late game objective claiming or contesting in a mobile transport. I'll edit out the Targetting Array. For some reason my brain was thinking the Hunter-Kill...er... um... Seeker Missile used the vehicle's BS. Oops Since it doesn't affect the missiles it's definitely not really worth it as an upgrade.



I've noticed I tend to play more towards mobility myself and not liking big point sink tanks... I tend to prefer infantry lists, which is why I'm fond of the battlesuits... they don't feel like a tank. However your point is very valid. I did put the EMP grenades on the infantry teams to try and compensate for the broadsides, but you and Wiele have good points about them being spendy upgrades. I'll edit the "hopeful" list to accomidate an additional Broadside while downsizing the EMP grenades.


I added drones mostly to help various squads accomplish their roles... at least as I figured would help them. I knew I could use more markerlights, so adding the marker drones to the Stealths was to help address that problem. The Shield Drones on the two Monats were to help give them more longevity, as well as with the Broadsides and Pathfinders. I didn't add any Bonding Knives as I thought that they were redundant wargear in the new edition. The extra gun drones for the FireStorms would be to add a bit more dakka for them in their "just deep struck please clear this space so they don't die instantly" problem. You've got a very good point though, it is a lot of points tied up into drones. I could drop the ones from the Pathfinders I think, and reassign them to the second two man Broadside team, the other ones seem like they belong.


*blink blink* Woah... *re-reads Codex* How did I miss that? Maybe because every other army only has wargear allowable to upgraded models, this Team Leader thing is an entirely new concept for me. By that logic the only upgrades I need are in the regular Firewarrior teams and the Pathfinders to give them the all-important Leadership boost. That's a lot of 5 point savings here and there...

As far as a lucky shot to the 'vre, with the new edition wound allocation, I'd have to take 8 wounding hits in one shooting phase for him to be at risk, so I think I'll be okay there. If they're pouring that much firepower into the Stealths then they're shielding the rest of my army from incoming fire and it's a worthy cause. I will downgrade him to a Team Leader though. It's a 20 point or so savings when taken with all the other nickels and dimes. That's another drone or two for the deep striking squads.


Thank you both for your help. It's definitely intimidating to start new armies, and having a budget now with a family means it's a lot harder to recover from bad financial investments Hopefully this work in progress will continue nicely. I'll edit the above list to show changes.

Now.. did you have any suggestions for smaller valid lists to help learn how these guys really play out experience-wise and get some field testing?

After spending more time reading the Codex, and contemplating the Tau methods of war (The Mont'ka and Kauyon) I've come up with a couple ideas that could be useful with this particular Cadre I'm attempting to build. As I also said I would try to use this original post to spawn a blog upon building my army and coming up with ideas, as well as what I find does and does not work from a former Imperial perspective. Since I'm still in the planning and theory stages, well, that's what comes for now

The Mont'ka reminds me of surgical strikes against key aspects or units of the opponents defense. This would be similar to drop podding squads or dreads to specific locations, surgical artillery strikes, or teleported terminators or other deep striked forces. The biggest difference I see is that the Tau will get a move after being deep struck by utilizing the jet pack during the assault phase to withdraw from their hopefully destroyed target and leave a bubble of space in the enemies defensive line.

Now, logic says that when a bad guy has just deep struck behind or to the side of your forces and blown things up, you can't leave an active foe behind you to harrass your lines. Therefore the enemy is almost sure to counter with SOMETHING directed at the deep strikers.

This means, in theory, you should be able to use your surgical Mont'ka strikes as lures for Kauyon pounces, particularly if there were some sort of tool that allowed you to arrange for counterstrike protection to arrive behind enemy lines to incinerate scary things in a hail of anti-personnel fire.

Oh wait, we have that incredibly useful Positional Relay as well as a Marker Beacon on our Pathfinder's Devilfish don't we?

The theory then becomes a possibility, especially with the amount of anti-personnel firepower that a Stealth team can generate, while maintaining deep strike potential since they are jetpacks like the Crisis suit.

Has anyone tried using a Stealth Team in this fashion, as deep struck anti-personnel firepower to counter something attacking a lone deep struck Monat? It's true that Drone Squadrons also deep strike, however they don't have anywhere near the firepower support that the Stealths do.

It also raises interesting questions about using a combination of Mont'ka and Kauyon, as well as the interdependence between the two. Using strikes to force the opponent to respond in predetermined locations for you to use additional forces to pounce on the predetermined responses.

As always, any replies or thoughts are welcome, as it will only help my basic understanding of my will be new forces.

EDIT: After I finished typing all of this, I realized I got a little long-winded. Have a seat a grab a drink before you get started...
EDIT 2: M'yen Shi, you just added your last post while I was writing all of this so I apologize if I don't get to some of your questions in this post. It's already long enough as it is.

I think your 2k list looks pretty solid now. I'm satisfied with the changes you've made. If anyone has a problem with the fact that you are now 4 points over the limit, I suppose you could drop a seeker or something, but most places that I know of allow a variance of less than five points. I'm sure you know what your local group allows, but it might be nice in to know what you'd want to do if you enter a tourney or something. At some point, meh, that's probably a long way off though so let's talk about some smaller lists.

What you have here at 2k is a hybrid list. Since I know you've been lurking here at ATT for a while, I'm sure that you've got a good handle on what that means for your choices and tactics. If you plan on maintaining a hybrid style throughout your subsequent lists (which is what I'm assuming) then we have a general direction to take things.

First, when condensing a list, you've got to understand what your unit's roles are and what your needs will be. Since Tau units are less about flexibility and redundancy (like most IoM armies --especially marines) and more about specialization and efficiency, you can't just pull units out indiscriminately and expect your list to still function. More than likely, that unit was filling an important role that will be difficult for other units to fill in it's stead. The entire process is a little like a game of Jenga in that you are trying to remove what pieces you can without the entire tactical framework of your list coming down around your ears.

That being said, let's start with a 500 point list and see what you have. I'm going to go through my thinking on developing this list in [almost painful] detail. I don't want to insult your intelligence by doing this since you seem like a sharp guy and I know you are no new person when it comes to 40K, but since this is a public forum, hopefully others can benefit from a little extra detail. It will also help you to know what I'm thinking and maybe make it easier to get into a mindset for tau list-making. So, without further prologue, here we go...

First, let's begin with the unit's you absolutely must have for your list to be legal.

Any Tau list must have a crisis suit Commander and one unit of Fire Warriors, so those units are obvious choices. Second, all lists must have an HQ and two Troop choices and since you've only got Fire Warriors in your 2k list, we'll add another squad of them into this list so you aren't buying models you won't use later. That gives you one crisis Commander and two Fire Warrior teams. Since we are creating a hybrid list, it would make sense to give one of the teams a Devilfish. In 500 point games, a D-fish is an expensive purchase for your squads, but it's also a very strong tank in smaller games as well. For now, just assume that you are going to give it a disruption pod. Fifth edition has made this little piece of wargear a must-have item on all chassis at any points level. That'll take 85 points total.

Now you've got a chance to decide what type of fire teams to deploy. One will be mobile and one will be on foot, so that is the major deciding factor. At this point it comes down to preference and play-style somewhat, but here is my recommendation and reasoning: max out your foot-slogging squad to 12 men and give them a Shas'ui but leave out any upgrades at least for now. I suggest the Shas'ui and the extra bodies because if this team is going to be out in the open, and the other team is going to be bottled up in a fish, guess which team will get shot more? The Shas'ui adds better leadership so you don't run and the added bodies mean that you've got more wounds to go through before your team thinks about running in the first place. Now we move to the mobile team. Because they will be using a Devilfish, they'll tend to be safer from shooting than the foot team. This means that we can afford to be a bit cheaper with them if we need to. For now, let's give them the minimum of six bodies with no Shas'ui. Since they are mounted in a devilfish, and they are a small team, you might as well give them rifles to maximize their firepower at rapid fire range allowing them to hit above their weight class so to speak. For the same reason, I'm also going to add a multi-tracker to the Devilfish at this point because I want that fish to be able to always lend it's fire to the troops no matter how far it's moved. It's an expensive upgrade, but now for the price of an extra fire warrior, you've given yourself the potential to fire another five shots (burst cannon + drones) no matter how far you've moved. This also makes the Devil-fish much more of a threat at this level. With your mobile team sorted out, that leaves your foot-slogging team's weapons still undecided. Here you must make a choice. Is it more important to give them the mobility of carbines or the range and rapid fire ability of the rifles? I suggest you go with rifles in this instance for the following reasons: This team will likely be the one to guard your own objective in, or close to, your own deployment zone so mobility may not be that important. If they are guarding an objective, then they will need better range in order to support the other forward elements of your army and also to thin the ranks of whatever may be advancing on their position. For these reasons, rifles would seem to be the logical choice for this team as well.

All of those choices put us somewhere around the 285 point mark. Now we have to decide what else we want in the list. Next, I'll move on to battlesuits. Battlsuits are essentially the swiss army knife of the tau army. They can take on just about anything given the right loadout. In low-points games especially, the missile pod becomes a real terror for the enemy. Most vehicles taken by your opponents will not be immune to its attacks. It also gives you excellent range and is not terribly expensive either. If points are tight, Deathrains are a great option. If you can afford them, Firestorms (burst cannon, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker) are more flexible and are a smarter choice over plasma-based suits because you don't tend to run into many TeQs in the smaller games and plasma is expensive. So let's add two Firestorms.

We're now up to about 385 points and we still haven't given our commander a loadout or given you anything particularly hard-hitting yet. For now, let's make your HQ a Firestorm and assume he will join the 2 Elite Firestorms to form a team.

To round out my list, I'll add Sunforge (TL Fusion) with a Black Sun Filter for taking out hard targets. Just in case the missile pods from the firestorms aren't enough or there's a tough HQ choice I need 'fragged pronto. He could deepstrike in or he could start on the board. Either way.

That pretty much takes me to my points limit and I think I've pretty well address any potential threats I might run into. I've got lots of pulse fire for dealing with troops and I've got a good number of missile pod shots for taking on transports and vehicles or high-toughness creatures, and I've got a fusion blaster suit in case I really need something dead. If I feel that the Sunforge just isn't cutting it and I need some Tougher AV, I could always try to take a single broadside by downgrading my Firestorms to Deathrains --or even a couple of deepstriking TL flamer suits or something.

Final List:
HQ
Shas'el Firestorm (Burst Cannon + Missile Pod + Multi-tracker)

ELITE
2x FireStorm (Burst Cannon + Missile Pod + Multi-tracker)
1x SunForge (Twin-linked fusion + Black Sun Filter)

TROOP
Fire Team 1
6 Shas'la (Pulse Rifles)
1 Devilfish (Disruption Pod + Multi-tracker)
Fire Team 2
11 Shas'la (Pulse Rifles)
1 Shas'ui (Pulse Rifle)

TOTAL: 500 points

OK, I know that was a pretty long explanation, but I hope it was more worthwhile than just saying, "These units rock. You should take them." I'm not expecting you to use this list necessarily (though if you'd like to use it, be my guest) I just wanted to walk you through the process on how I go about building a list. By giving you not only the strengths of individual units but also the synergy between the units in the list, I hope you can take some ideas for the larger lists too. Also, I guess I might add that I know that this is not a Positional Relay list, but in all honesty, you can't really pull those off effectively at 500 points. Hope this helps some.

--Xeones

1) I like the combined double deepstrike ambush plan. I will have to try it out next time I get the chance.

2) With fish mounted troops that are probably going to be making a last minute grab at an objective, I would think carbine might be a better choice, as they let you assault. Which you normally wouldn't do, but if there's the option of pushing a weakened opponent right off an objective, you probably would.
Although, maybe at 500pts, these troops are too likely to be deployed a little earlier and the rapid fire becomes more important...

Joe

No worries about the 2nd post, it was mostly an introspective tactical idea that I put so others may enjoy its use and to demonstrate what's going on in my head. Who knows, maybe someone will find the process my brain is going through starting a new army with existing knowledge helpful.


The extra detail certainly doesn't hurt, and it's always helpful to go back to basics periodically to reinforce your understanding of basic principles, no matter how experienced one is In truth your explaination was very helpful in reminding of the basic principles and showing the mindset for me to draw comparisons from.

Given what I've seen, Tau list construction strikes me as much more similar to building an Imperial Guard list than other armies of the Imperium of Man. If you remove the heavy weapon teams from Infantry Platoons to maximize their mobility (a counter current line of thought treatment that I personally am fond of) you get something that's similar to a "Diet Coke" Fire Warrior team (at about half the points cost respectively). The heavy weapons are then concentrated in the Support Squads and Tanks (similar to a Crisis Suit/Broadside/Vehicle arrangement in Tau). The big difference is that there are more unit entries in the Guard list (at least in terms of "Heavy weapon units") rather than fewer entries in the Tau list with more options for each one. Also the guard list ends up with a LOT more models, particularly in the troop choices, which is more friendly in a battle of attrition. The Tau models are more effective per model, however, and have commanders that are potentially more effective in a battlefield role as opposed to a leadership and coordination role (the irony being going with my AFP/positional relay commander makes him operate more like an IG Colonel). After initial exposure from reading other posts and the Codex I am inclined to treat the Tau closer to the Imperial Guard than anything else. For the time being I'll take this approach mentally. They may be somewhat closer to the Inquisition as well with wierd quirky things and very effective specialized units, but I'll contemplate that at a later date and treat them as little blue guardsmen for a while.

In the interests of a budget, trying to make a cohesive list and allowing for future expansion, a new revised 500 point list is below:

Shas'el w/ AFP, shield generator, drone controller w/ shield drone, gun drone
FireForge-8 Crisis suit (TL fusion gun, missile pod, HW multi-tracker, HW drone controller w/ gun drone)
3 Stealths
10 Fire Warriors w/ pulse rifles, shas'ui
10 Fire Warriors w/ pulse carbines, shas'ui

known problems: This list is very strong with anti-infantry/horde firepower. There's a LOT of Strength 5 shooting and a big Strength 4 pie-plate. It's also dependant upon one single model for anti-vehicle firepower. However, if taking the approach of objective denial while concentrating infantry upon a single objective it could remain effective in small games which are typically vehicle light. If I run into problems I can always trade out the Stealths for a FireStorm or Broadside suit to assist the FireForge-8 at a later date. It's not as mobile as a true hybrid list, but with a simple single additional purchase of a Devilfish down the road mobility is restored. Also the Stealths can infiltrate which does increase deployment area of influence at the start of the game. I think for the moment this will be the list I'll start with (since it also lets me model appropriately the commander I will use down the road by combining a Farsight and Crisis Suit Commander box, then using a space head for the FireForge Monat and the Team Leader of the eventual FireStorm Crisis team).


Aha! Vindication of my theoretical tactical babble! I'm glad you liked the two turn ambush idea, please feel free to let me know how it goes

Considering the carbines from a Devilfish, I think I have to take the side of the rifle mounted supporters. Since the Devilfish is not an assault vehicle like the Land Raider, it's impossible to charge out of one on the turn you deploy the infantry. Therefore on that turn the only thing you can do is shoot, which make rapid fire weapons more effective. If you deploy within rapid fire range you are going to get charged by the enemy regardless (most likely) so you need to thin their numbers as much as possible. Rifles are more likely to do that than carbines, unless you can manage to pin the enemy all on your own (unlikely in my opinion). If you were able to assault out of the Devilfish it would be a different argument.

Edit: fixed an awkward grammatical sentence, adjusted 500 point list based on comments

@myen'shi, your Shas'el config is a little woosy. If you can hardwire something, you should, and with a shield generator, you don't need two shield drones in reality. Instead HW the drone controller, drop one shield drone and then take a CIB and a HW multitracker. For the same point cost, you get another 5 anti-horde shots per turn and still have decent survivability. If your 'El is taking enough firepower to roll through him with a shield generator and a drone, then having two won't do anymore to help you. Instead, at 500 points, focus his extremely accurate firepower on doing MORE damage.

Also, those stealth suits are going to provide your armies actual "real" firepower. Drop each FW squad to 8 and either add another member to the stealth team and add a shas'ui, or add TAs to each of the three stealths and still take the shas'ui. Same points again, but you gain 3 mobile shots mounted on faster, more mobile and tougher models. While your FWs sit on objectives(or at least one) your stealth suits are free to move around and harass/eliminate enemy models.

Your Shas'El should move with them, gaining a "screen" and/or adding a lot of high power shots to the squads firepower.

I like your crisis set up, as it is the most effective/cost efficient way to deal with any armor on the board.

Hmm.. the initial idea was to use the same commander figure I was going to use once I "activated" his Positional Relay (that will be modeled but inactive for tiny things) so I can use the same figures and just have him evolve as he acquires field experience, but you have some good points. I think what I might do is give him a shield drone and a gun drone instead of two shield drones, and add a gun drone to the Monat for survivability. It makes it 500 points but a little more offense, as well as not giving me wargear or a setup that I will have to unlearn and quit getting used to as they evolve down the road.

I'm definitely looking forward to the Stealth suits... if they consistantly impress me I may have to eventually evolve the anti-armor Monat to a Shas'el and take a second unit of Stealths. It's a potential large point army evolution anyway as years down the road it will be eventually Apolaypse sized out of sheer acquisition.

So it'll be several weeks before I can get models to be trying lists out, my current plan is to see if the local store has a Tau army that I could borrow for some small games. I've also been working on planning a paint scheme roughly based off of the Clone Troopers in Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, from the battle of Kashyyyk. For a while I was debating between Tash'var and D'yanoi. I liked the character traits associated with the Tash'var, but ultimately settled on D'yanoi. Backwoods doesn't mean simple, it means practical and common sense. There's no sense in bringing high tech gadgets when you're going to be trekking through the mud, and why buy something that's a little more shiney but going to break when the model that's a few years old works just fine and is easier to fix in the field. The paint scheme was also similar, and after mental visualization the idea of a bunch of Tau hunters trekking through a swamp Crocodile Dundee style appealed to me. That and having an already designated Sept color was nice, as well as being able to modify the Farsight Shield into a D'yanoi symbol easily. However, with my brain being what it is there are a few thoughts that are recurring regarding lists and tactics that I can't make go away, so I thought adding it to my new army blog/advice/whatever thread would help. As always, thoughts and discussion are very welcome.

Coming from a Warhammer Fantasy background, with mounted Bretonnian Knights in particular, means that I've developed an eye for terrain as it dictates movement and avenues of attack. I've also learned to spot potential bottlenecks, as well as places where the opposing player will attempt to maneuver my knights to spring ambushes to attack my vulnerable flanks. Playing against a lot of Skaven games means I have a lot of practice at this.

Starting a Tau army has brought this same skill into play, but from the other side of the table. I am now the hunter as opposed to the hunted, but that same eye for terrain is becoming useful. Everyone knows how to use terrain for cover and to block LOS to tender units. However I think that terrain plays a much more important role to a Tau player, especially when considering the Mont'ka and Kauyon. Also I have come to the conclusion that maintaining a hybrid list is the best style to go with a Positional Relay, for reasons I will list below.

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
- Sun Tzu

When deploying any army at a table, the first thing I do is look over the terrain. In Fantasy it's to look at where you want to deploy artillery and archers, which hills will give you Line of Sight over much of the terrain without moving, where the enemy is likely to deploy infantry, which avenues of movement are open for things like masses of knights maneuvering like school buses. These are the skills I've started to apply to my 40K games. Movement is even more critical now that all armies have gained the Run ability and more mobility. Look at the terrain and spot likely avenues of movement. Which terrain is the opponent most likely to avoid while trying to move from their deployment zone to mission objectives? Where are "fire corridors" that are good spots to deploy more stationary units like Broadside suits and Fire Warrior teams? If you know where your enemy is prone to want to go, we can go into more depth of deploying traps.

We can use things like Broadside suits and stationary 30" firing Fire Warriors to force the opponent to move where we want them to. Someone may chance moving a tank through LoS of a single rail gun, but they're going to avoid exposing their tank to three twin-linked railguns. Similarly to advance an infantry squad into a fire corridor of 30" strength 5 death is silly. Marines may try it and depend on their armor, but even they will think twice. Deploying more stationary units that can dictate available corridors of movement is critical, thus their inclusion in my army rosters. If I can force the enemy to move where I want him, I begin to know what he will and will not do, which is knowing my enemy. I already have determined where I want to be, which units I have available as reinforcements, and the ability to call them and place them where I want them. That's knowing myself.

Now, also learn to look for bottlenecks. Places where once the enemy moves through the allowable movement corridor they will be exposed and unsupported. Think of this as the enemy moving into a valley, with his own support units behind him and unable to bring his full firepower or numbers to bear. This is where I see again the Mont'ka and the Kauyon blending together. If you force the enemy to move where you want him, to preplanned places to spring pinpoint strikes against exposed units, is this Mont'ka killing blow, or Kauyon patient hunter? Does it even matter? How seperate really are these two styles, and how closely are they linked? These are questions I am still trying to answer, as I keep seeing them as being one and the same. Is this the unique balanced style of war mentioned by Commander Puretide on page 13 of the Codex?

In any event, the terrain is as much a weapon for us as our battlesuits. With a Positional Relay, a Pathfinder Devilfish, and units like Crisis suits and Stealth suits to deliver pinpoint deepstriking attacks, you can attack the enemy in these predetermined ambush locations, based on available terrain, movement corridors, and using our preplaced stationary units to make the enemy more inclined to avoid their deadly fire, thus making some avenues of movement more desirable than others. This seems something that most hybrid lists can take advantage of, but a Positional Relay list seems even more inclined to do so.

Even more things to test on the battlefield as I build this cadre.

unfortunatly i don't have the time to completely read all your replies so if my suggestion has already been voiced bear with me ok.
i would take 4 fire teames bare butt naked no grenades because if youre warriors get that close don't even consider them to exist also if you must take the +1 ld of a ui but only when you have spare points i recomend squads of 10 cost wise put em in warfish and leap frog your way up feild if a fish goes down provide support by fire and run the survivors along side your fish if you must keep a team back feild on high ground with an ethereal the ld re roll is a life saver
while your mech warriors are assaulting the "main" objective take a couple suits outfitted whith long range guns to kill the occasinal assault squad they ruin a tau day almost every time they get into you the suits will give you a few last hope life lines in those dire situations (turn 5 4in away from the objective contest to tie assault anyone)
and for the heart and soul of yor force you have two options suit or as i like to call the preacher boyz (ethereal) most say suits without a second hesitation but its not unwise to feild a honor guard in a fish up fron i personaly like to run two ethereals one out front one up high i run the first in front and kamakazi charge a enemy unit when he dies and yes he will die the second ethereal practicly hands your army a preffered which will tick off a marine any day when tau kick him in cqb i have a rep of fanged tau at my local store lol any way thats a rough advisory on what you COULD do