Ever since the current Mech craze got off the ground when 5th Edition hit the shelves, our Troops units, Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot, have been labelled weak and vulnerable units. The topic is well discussed here on the forums and all over the internet. Fire Warriors and Kroot alike suffer from low leadership, poor marksmanship and weak armor, so much so that I rarely use them to attack the enemy. Instead they have become objective claimers and holders, held in reserve both units as standard to keep them alive.

When I write my list, I've lately been building the troops units around durability and agility, trying to ensure that they will be able to make it objective alive.

Kroot have the wonderful ability to infiltrate and move quickly through woods while claiming a respectable 3+ cover save when doing so. A unit of 10 Kroot with 5 Kroot Hounds are modestly priced and at a unit strength of 15, the unit can take some casualties without testing for morale.

Tau Fire Warriors are in one hand my favorite looking models in the Tau army, but on the other, are one of my least favorite units game-wise. However I do field two units of them. I purchase 6 Warriors and throw them into a Devilfish with a Multitracker and Disruption Pod. This gives me some mobility without sacrificing fire and a 4+ cover save at shot fired from more than 12 inches away. I have been thinking of switching out the Multitracker for Sensor Spines however, as this will give free movement anywhere, regardless of terrain. It's also nice because they can now claim objectives that are place in difficult terrain, without fear of immobilizing the Devilfish. This comes in a little over 150 points.

One of the things I have missed about 4th Edition though, is that I used to use my Fire Warriors to attack and sadly that just isn't happening anymore. I want to know how the wider ATT community feels about that? Are any of you attacking the enemy with your troops or have them been relegated to the backfields like mine with Suits and Hammerheads getting all the glory? if you're using them to attack, what are your builds like?

Outflanking kroot bombs with a positional relay still hit as hard as getting charged by 30 ork boyz, their only problem is their lack of staying power and a powerclaw so you have to be selective of what they assault.
BS5 FoF is still scary but hard to pull off now so you don't give a cover save and don't get assaulted.

Most opponents will overlook my carbine toting firewarriors and focus fire on the more intimidating battlesuits. This is why I give them EMP grenades

I also use kroot as an alternative to flamers/templates. Fortune favors the bold... and smelly avian warriors.

After reading eiglepulpers Shadowsun list I've been working up to fielding fourty eight Fire Warriors on the table in varying unit sizes. I soup'em up with drones and grenades and throw them out there without a 'fish. The only 'fish(s) I'm rolling now are for the Pathfinder(s).

Eiglepulpers Shadowsun list started to make sense when I realized my Space Wolf opponant had more models on the table than me. I had 10 suits, a couple 'heads, a couple 'sides 18 Fire Warriors and 20 kroot. He had over sixty models on the table plus drop pods and dreads. He had more elite elite models and faster fast attack. He had more shots per turn than I did to boot.

Two squads of Pathfinders are good as well. One to support your elites/heavies, the other to support the Fire Warriors. I'm running them with mid'fish(dpod,multi).

weak armor save on firewarriors?! what have you been smoking? I have been trotting around with a mobile cadre since 3rd edition and the only thing that has changed for me has been my ever growing army, and my experience. I still use my fire warriors in an attack option, though in a more supportive role.

Using my Devilfish and Hammer Heads as a bait leading up to the Mon'ka I lure in most armys with a out numbered and lowly supported cadre. Surviving a few turns as I deep strike and side flank just gives me the edge.

What I am basically stating is that the Fire warrior has faded out as being my front line unit and has become a support option, Overlooking an objective with their 30" range, while a EMP commando unit sits inside a fish and swoops in for the obj grab.

But I will say a 4 man EMP Commando pathfinder unit has taken its place for me when it comes to front line units. It is cheap, highly flexible, and easily over looked.

As for your statement about a fast maneuverable unit, I would stay away from pulse rifles and look at carbines then.
Causality's are a given, you have to come to accept this, you need to pick a unit that you can deal with losing vast amounts and get them in front to do your dirty work. Oh and as for your comment about suits getting all the glory. If I put 200pts into a 3man unit, I expect said unit to get all the glory. They are elites and should act like so.

And in regard to the last post. I see your running 3 em commando squads in approximately a 2000pt list. It is apparent you have sacrificed a lot of your infantry for mobility and objective capturing units, but left a lot of objective contesting and cleaning units out. Personal opinion would be to remove and optimize your thinking and broaden your troop selection. By dropping the fish on that one unit you could perhaps field 2 fll strength fire warrior squads, while still retaining the speed of the two emp commando units.

As for sensor spines, I don't mind becoming immobilized over the objective. It is where I need to be, It is where I am staying.

A T3 model with 4+ save and no way to get an efficient invulnerable save is pretty weak mate

'Attacking' with Tau is a myth. The only thing that should be moving forward is Piranhas; everything else should sit in the Deployment Zone and shoot. Kroot just can't handle being used on the assault anymore, with so many armies packing Flamers and automatically getting frags; the existence of Mech armies hurts these guys even more as they just get tank shocked around and can't do anything about it. Kroot nowadays are only good for meatshields, speedbumps and limiting scout moves, they are not a viable attacking unit. They used to be pretty good, now, not so much. The only other use I have for Kroot is to root out pesky Hydras and such, explained here.

Firewarriors are a bad choice for an attacking unit as they need to buy a Devilfish to be effective. This isn't great though because if you want to move up to deliver a FOF [which is pretty average in terms of firepower] you will be hit with a faceful of Meltas before you can say "By the Aun!" The only real reason to buy FW these days is to get Devilfish for mobile terrain purposes. While at 2000+ games you're forced to buy more troops for objective taking, you don't actually need Devilfish to do it - you can use the Devilfish you bought with the FWs to hide your XV8s, and so they can pound the enemy to a pulp. If you've done it right, pretty much anything scary in the opposing force should be gone by about turn 3 and you can waltz freely by foot onto objectives.

The real 'attacking' unit is Piranhas. Buy two or three units of them, and use them simply to force the enemy to move through them. Get first turn and turbo boost right up to the enemy - they have to spend a turn or two destroying the Piranhas and moving past them. Destroying them is annoying because they have 4+ cover, and because in CC you need 6's to hit. Then once they're destroyed you have to move over the wreck, and by this point the rest of your army's firepower should have smashed any chance of a decent counter attack. If you get turn two, the enemy either tries to shoot the Piranhas and chance that Disruption Pod save, but face the full power of everything else. If they ignore the Piranhas, you move up to meet the enemy and hold them up just like you would if you had turn one, only this time you don't need to move as far and can use their Fusion Blasters to put holes in vehicles and MCs.

So really, if you try to move forward and 'attack' with anything in a Tau army that you do want to survive, then you'll be caught in CC or Melta'd.

T3 4+ save is a step above guardsmen, but twice as expensive.
Pretty much every heavy anti-infantry weapon (Heavy Bolters, Whirlwinds, Missile Launchers, Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, etcetera) will wound them on 2's and ignore their armor, while regular anti-infantry weapons (Bolters, Shuriken catapults, etc) will wound them on 3's and you'll lose half of them. Then they have to take a leadership test on shoddy leadership. They're slightly more survivable then guardsmen/guardians but cost twice as much. Combine that with their low unit count when compared to other flimsy units and they are weaker than guardsmen or guardians. The only thing they have going for them are their pulse rifles and the devilfish to keep them safe.

Also, don't forget this fun fact. In 5th ED, 4+ cover is EVERYWHERE. Cover saves are so plentiful (at least, if your actually playing 25% terrain like the book) that, not even trying, over half your army should be in cover from majority of the shooting.
So, now those 5pt guardsmen with the t3 and 5+ are t3 with 4+. Firewarriors at half the cost, save the slightly worse gun. The only benefit your firewarriors get, is now they get a save against that lascannon or meltagun, but we all know those are aimed at your broadsides and crisis teams anyways.

Depends how you define attacking really, for me the fire warrior unit is pretty stout. While it is not my primary workhorse unit it does it attack role well. I have a unit which will shrug off most small arms fire, has a longer range, and does more damage. I mean, its not like you have a better unit to take objectives. It seems most Tau players these days seem to forget that notion. I would rather take an objective with a 6man Fire team in a fish, then with a full up 32 member Kroot mob. It is cheaper and can take fire to last at least 2 turns. Especially if I wait to put them on the objective for the first 3 turns to clear it out. But if you want a direct physical confrontation unit I would suggest a Kroot outflank for An attacking troop choice.

@lost - The % of loss statistically is about 21%, not 50% as you claim (Which means it could even less losses). assuming its a space marine bolter at range firing 12 shots. Also not all of us are gifted with the Emperors space marines. I am quite contempt with my Leadership 8/7 and it has done me very well in this 'ard boyz tournament.

@ Sherpa - My Tau army is mech and is quite well complimented by the kroot actually (outflanking and screening does wonders). Since I have dusted off my old kroot squads and put them back into service my army has become even my vicious and tactically flexible. Most people take the same view as you on kroot, "oh look kroot, pfft". That is fine and all until you flank a devastator squad, or hit up a small company command squad with I4 to your hounds I5. 36 attacks from just those alone can nicely even the score, followed up by a potential 60 attacks from some plain kroot, a lot more effective then 13 mind you. As a side note you use the FoF not as an instigator unit but as a finisher.

But to answer the main question. Will warriors ever be used in attack? Only to finish the job, or in desperate situations. If you want to play a ver foward frontal attack army. Stop playing Tau now, or get used to the fact you will only win assaults if you GREATLY out number your enemy.

When I say "attack" I don't mean assault, I mean cause damage. So even a Crisis Unit that sits in the back field and shoots is still attacking the enemy, they're just doing it from range.

For me, Kroot are pretty useful in objective-based games when there are objectives near the short edges. They quite frequently help me win the game by moving on from a board and claim an objective.

It's a pity. The Fire Warrior is toted as carrying the best basic weapon in the game but this all means nothing if you can't use it well. Most armies these days rarely have enemy on foot that the Fire Warriors could target so it's like why not put them into reserve?

I'm also a strong advocate for giving each Fire Warrior squad their own transport instead of renting one from Pathfinders. By having their own ride, you get to leave them in reserve and move them on the board in a protective shell where you need it. If they borrow one from the Pathfinders, you have to set up the devilfish where you need it in advance, revealing to your enemy your plan. With their own devilfish you can still surprise the enemy with your reserves.

A great example of this was in one of my most recent games which you can read about here: http://tauofwar.blogspot.com/2010/05/at-war-with-red-army-part-2-blood.html In that game, the special abilities of both Kroot and Fire Warriors won me the game!

There's a part of me that really misses the days of FoF attacks. I used lay in wait, firing at the enemy from a distance until he got close enough and POW! the Devilfsih would move out, disgorge fire warriors and I would wipe out whole squads rolling 48 S5 shots from my two 12-man FW squads. It was beautiful! Ahh, 4th edition nostalgia...

Hmm, my points:

1: Tau are under certain circumstance able to stage succesfull assaults in Close combats, however, in many situations shooting would simply be more worthwhile, especially since Tau can give remove annoying coversaves due to markerlights.
2: I find myself attacking if: either the enemy to be attacked shoots a lot and does not fight much (f.e. Reapers), or if its the last turn and I need to force someone off a objective.
3: Kroot are great for killing shooty stuff, Vespids and Piranha Born Gun drones are still decent (and fast enough) in tieing shooty stuff up.
4: Not exactly close combat, but tank shocking is quite important in trying to make the enemy buch up (more profit from Template weapons), or split up (easier work for your Kroot).

I was taking it as meaning using them in an aggressive role - moving up into Rapid Fire range and putting the enemy under pressure. I still think what I said is in context.
Because really, the only way to allow your FW to do decent damage is for them to be in RF range, and waiting for the enemy to get there is bad for the rest of your army. So basically, just never count on them doing damage at all.

And the Kroot? Again, as I said, they're just there to be speedbumps. Damage dealing isn't their greatest strength, it's the ability to get loads of Infiltrators and cheap bodies that can still score - if you aren't simply trying to table the enemy.

Fire Warriors just aren't costed efficiently enough to be a real damage-causing unit. They're from back in the older editions, when troops = bad, and the 4+ save they pay for is a poor choice in a edition where universal cover is the rule. Moreover, GW's decision to deny them integral heavy weapons as part of the army fluff cripples them; anyone with brains realizes that the value of a Tactical Squad or Infantry Squad lies in the heavy/special weapons it carries- the dudes with Bolters and Lasguns are just wound markers to insure that the real performers get to keep doing their job. Lacking that, a squad full of basic guns (although admittedly very nice ones) simply does not impress.

I'm not sure at what price Fire Warriors would actually be an attractive choice. 6pts each, perhaps? or maybe 70 for a ten-strong squad with a Shas'ui? Given recent trends, including Photon Grenades for free would seem likely, but to be honest I'd rather see them not get the grenades, because you'd rather see the unit get run down and torn apart so you can shoot the charger on your turn.

Giving Shas squads the option to buy a Seeker Missile they can "shoot" in a manner like a Chapter Master's Orbital Bombardment could also work; you basically have a one-shot Krak that gets called in from off-board once per game. It gives you a modicum of AT firepower in a handy package. It'd have to be cheaper than the current Seeker, though; 10pts is about what you pay for a Missile Launcher, nevermind a one-shot version that can't fire Frags.

Actually, I think that the lack of special weapons could be cancelled out by actually giving them variable main weaponry (right now, the difference between Pulse Rifle and Pulse Carbine is smaller than the one between Bolter and Bolt Pistol Chainsword), adding a more shortranger weapontype for example...
Also, Squadlike "Weaponry addons" could be implemented, and if a race will be bent of "pimping" their rifles it will be the Tau.

12 Firewarriors can still dish out a lot of firepower with Markers, but neither the FWs nor the Markers (baring FW Piranhas) are overly mobile, meaning that, apart from scoring, imho FWs have relativly few talents that other selections don't do better.

I disagree on Kroots beeing mere speedbumps btw. For 7 points, they have very decent stats and a capable gun.

If done well rapid firing FW are your most dangerous unit. Without markerlights too. Two squads killed one Daemon Prince without help. And I don't know about you but that long range High strength shot is one thing most people fear about Tau. Even our infantry can take on transports in a pinch.

Also Outflanking kroot make an excellent tank hunter. Ever tried putting 15 or so kroot in CC with a Tank? If not I'd suggest it sometime. Especially if its a transport and you can block all possible exits.

I am generally running 3 troops choices.

10 Kroot and 5 Kroot Hounds
6 Fire Warriors in Devilfish with Disruption Pod and 'Tracker
6 Fire Warriors in Devilfish with Disruption Pod and 'Tracker

This gives me 3 scoring units for a total of 410 points. Not bad. That leaves the rest of the army with enough points to pack a punch. I almost always leave them in reserve. They are simple objective claimers. In annihilation games, I leave the kroot in reserve and I might deploy the Devilfish for mobile cover (but at 3 kill points each, I think reserving them is best).

How are you guys fielding your Tau Fire Warriors and Kroot?

Kroots Speed bumps? By using outflank in the first round of my 'ard boyz I came in from the side and ate a devastar squad, sat in a tree line, and was fielding such a large unit (20 kroot 12 hounds) that my opponent ignored an entire table quarter fearing going into assault with a low model bike squad and being obliterated.

On the second round if it was not for Vulcan failing his leadership from enemy fire and running exactly 1 inch out of assault range the kroot would of ate him to death as well.

On the third game I used them to screen in front of all my devilfish transports and had them sitting in a tree line again, then enemy advances and leaves a infiltrating unit close by which comes out from its building and goes into a run straight at this massive kroot formation. Exiting the tree line they eat that squad, the two rhinos that are behind it, get assaulted and whipe one more tac squad before failing a -15 leadership test and being swept away.

For 1 KP I managed to secure 6 Kp's.

That is no speed bump, its a spike strip.

I fielded a squad of 12 fire warriors against necron monoliths, expecting to face 2-3 of them i got 3 full squads with EMP grenades.
One of them stood firm after being shot down to 9 models, assaulted the single monolith fielded via deep strike and obliterated it! They scored 4 glancing and one penetrating hit. By making it explode they saved my HQ, my kroot and my pathfinders from the Necron warrior invasion

I use my fire warriors to protect vital units, reacting as opposed to making the first move. Recently I've been running the same fish as O'Shatta Hens, with 12 Warriors carrying rifles placed 18-24 away from my heavy weapons. A carbine squad is also usually present, supporting the rifles fish of fury with their ability to move then fire 18". I usually put the carbines in a fish just for good measure. The rifle squad get first dibs on markerlights. Essentially I have my fire warriors to shoot anything which can be killed by them, and approaches my heavy weapons. I avoid targeting vehicles except A.V. 10, other units perform better in this role.
I will say, the biggest factor in this equation is fielding pathfinders, there is no other way to get sufficient markers, even using 12 Shas per squad.
My greatest troubles come in the form of CSM. Normal marines are enough to make our any of our warriors look somewhat sheepish (*forgive the pun*). I'm forced to run away from Plague Marines. Anyone got any idea's?

I tend to think that most people fear our Railguns a bit more Whenever I use my Guard I tend not to think about S5 guns - you can shoot my Chimeras and Valks is you really want with Pulse Rifles. In a world where getting out of your transport means dying, not many people do that these days. Yup, Kroot do a nice job of tank hunting; I linked that thread to my first post.



Kroot are great, yes, but against any dedicated assault unit they will get smacked. Kroot Hounds are great for getting hits in, but you will almost never get enough kills to prevent the squad from hitting back and making the Kroot run on their bad Ld. If you reckon you have enough protection to stop all your XV-8s and 88s getting assaulted then it's all very well to send them off to eat things. Everywhere I've played recently though, most games a Piranha/Devilfish wall just hasn't been enough. I've needed them form a wall in front of my suits, get hit, soften up the enemy and then laugh when the enemy eats RF plasma to the face.

If you try to assault a transport with Kroot, then the transports job is already done - it has unloaded it's guys right up to your line, cause there is now way your Kroot went out to get it. In the case where this does happen, the enemy player could easily just kite you and then the troops inside could jump out and shoot you if you tried to come close. Nobody uses a battle plan which relies on transports surviving; it just doesn't happen.


Buy a whole lot of Fusion Piranha, fly up to his face, hit his guys with your Meltas. Next turn, because he can't move through them, he'll shoot with his meltas and blow you up. Which is good because now he has to spend another turn getting over your wreck. And all this time your XV-8s and Submunitions will be putting the hurt on.

Because that's how a Tau army works - buying time so you get longer to shoot. And that's what Kroot are good at. They can outflank and tie up shooty units and assault vehicles. They can restrict Scout moves, push back Infiltrators, force Drop Pods and Deepstrikers to drop in bad positions, and go to ground in trees to absorb fire. All things which give you more time to shoot and kill stuff. Yeah, Kroot can kill stuff reasonably well. But if you use them to let the rest of the army kill stuff even better then you're doing it right. Remember, our army works by not counting on every unit to get it's points back, but each unit functioning as part of a whole - Kroot are one of the most obvious examples.