I really don't see the point of your "defensive" setup. You have two options:


1) Use a proper screen (Kroot up close, Piranhas to block movement) to ensure that assault units have to get through multiple units to reach your Broadsides, while your Broadsides can be armed for maximum offense and keep firing the whole time.

OR

2) Allow your Broadsides to get into combat, where they are effectively destroyed as they aren't doing their job of shooting and will not win combat without some amazing luck. And just to add insult to injury, your shield drones make it more likely that the squad will survive the first assault phase, so the assaulting unit will be protected from return fire on your turn.



I think option #1 is the pretty obvious choice here.

Thats somewhat situational Peregine, if its a couple turns into the game and the Broadsides have destroyed the vehicles they have too, it might be in your advantage to hold up some enemies. Given its not the best way of doing so, it is an option because you are putting a pretty survivable squad into the mix. Again its very situational but they might not have much better to shoot at and rather than lose a more valuable unit in assault or shot up the broadsides sacrifice themselves. Maybe, just maybe with all those drones and saving rolls they might make it to the end.

You can theoryhammer it to death, but until you've put 2 of these squads on the table you don't know how survivable they are. My last game against DE had them survive a charge from a wych squad led by a hemoculous, or whatever it was. Basically some good CC character and in the subsequent 4 rounds of combat, yes 4 rounds, the wyches ended up losing because of a lack of armor and the inability to get through the 4+ saves of the drones.

Also, kroot screens can be killed by...well just about anything. I don't place much faith in those. My 2+/4+ screen however has been working wonders in the last 30 or so games I've played with them.

Personally, IMO, field experience > theoryhammer. If you don't like it though, you certainly don't have to use them.

EDIT: it's worth noting, as well, that even had my broadside unit ended up dying in the end, the 4 turns they survived in hand to hand was more than sufficient to save numerous more vulnerable squads from the wyches engaging and destroying them. Locking down squads in combat is honestly more effective, in my opinion, then hoping they wipe out the squad they assaulted because it means I don't have to pour resources into destroying them in the subsequent turns.

I could never see the use of Broadsides as a screening unit in any scenario, even if all vehicles have been destroyed. Maybe it's because I deal with Space Marines who have lots of power weapons that laugh at my XV-88s' saves, but they are the sort of unit that I tend to protect at all costs.

I also don't see the value of ever giving a Broadside gun drones. Shield drones are far more effective and valuable, and (as Peregrine stated) there's no point in taking a TL as a support system at all. You're sacrificing mobility (ASS) or accuracy (TA) in an attempt to be able to hit more targets. In my experience, a volley of fire is far more effective, especially with the prevalence of cover saves even for vehicles. HWTL on the Team Leader is about as far as I'd go with that.

As for the tag line of the thread, I'm all about Broadsides, but a HH is good to have for the template, if nothing else.

I have to disagree a little bit regarding the use of TL's. On the weekend I was lucky enough to participate in the Queensland Masters event in Australia. I came 8th out of 14 running a Farsight list with only two troops. However, the stars of my weekend were most definitely the broadsides. Set up:

- team leader
- 2 'uis
- 2 shield drones
-TLs

I ended up playing two IG lists and one Ork list, and two SM lists. I won 2/5 with two of the others being very close. Having TL's was invaluable and crucial to my success. If I was facing AV 14, I jus poured 2 shots into it. Otherwise, the ability to take out possibly 3 chimeras/rhinos etc a turn was just amazing.

This is not to say there is some benefit in ASS, but with careful deployment selection I didn't once miss it to a point where I regretted having TL's. By no means am I saying I would always take them - just that you should not discount them.

After significant field testing, I can say that both mobility, and increased accuracy, is indispensable. But, in addition to this, there is also the oft forgotten vital need of giving your units a wide set of options. After reading the OP many months ago, and taking the variety of broadside squad builds through their runs (BASS, BTA, and the OP's custom BTL build), I found many shortcomings of each, which I will list below. These are all personal experience and opinion though, so take it with a grain of salt.

3 BASS (with leader + HWTL, HWMT, HWDC + 2 shield drones):

Undisputedly a strong anti-vehicle build. I have come to deeply appreciate the difference that even 2 inches of movement can make for this squads survivability and just barely getting one railgun that crucial LOS on the edge of the tank to take the shot, or moving just enough to get more than 50% of its facing. Its a standard build that every Tau player can stand by and its proved itself time and time again. However, a 75% hit rate means there's a 25% chance of failure. and everyone knows what that effect can have against a vehicle heavy army. In addition, while the previously mentioned situations are probably experiences every veteran tau player has had atleast once, it is by no means common. That movement is generally only a minor benefit in the situations the broadsides are typically in, and while the system will be used often by the player that equips it, its overall benefits are marginal. To be honest, when i compare it to the Blacksun filter, the Advanced Stabilization System falls into the same niche. The BASS unit IMHO makes a significant difference, but is not a justified reason to pay 30 points for. The BSF is a dirt cheap upgrade and can come hardwired to a BASS leader for the ability to take 1 shot in that dawn of war scenario, which is a known probability in 1/3 of the games you'll play, yet no one i talk to ever takes it. It makes the difference on that first turn, in 1/9 of the games you play, and the BASS unit costs 10 times as much

Something to think about next time you build a broadside squad.

3 BTA (with leader + HWTL, HWMT, HWDC + 2 shield drones):

The ultimate F$%&-YOU-ARMOR unit in the Warhammer 40k universe. It takes the most powerful gun in the game, on a unit that carries them in a twin linked fashion. and it boosts each units hit rate from 75% to 88.889%. Taking that into consideration, with the lack of any meaningful mobility in a 5th edition world, any knowledgeable opponent playing you on a typically arranged board will be able to put his armor in that one blind spot on the field that grants all his vehicles that cover save, or god forbid, blocks LOS completely. Even with 2 teams providing crossfire, anyone knows that it is ALWAYS better to take fire from 1 enemy rather than 2. Going from being able to pop 4 vehicles a turn to 2 is huge, and this build has no way to salvage this situation even a little.

Also, consider the purpose that 30 points is doing when you suddenly have no armor left to pop. yes its benefiting your rail guns for that 2+ armored git clear across the field, or your smart missiles for that hoard charging your lines. Most of the time however, once the vehicles are gone, there's generally no significant purpose the broadsides serve aside from support fire for other more squishier targets. Consider the fact that the same hit rate boost can be achieved with a successful markerlight from a single 12 point pathfinder model, or a 30 point marker drone on another squad, who can then benefit another squad's accuracy later once the primary threat has been neutralized. Those points can be shifted to benefit weapons that are more suited to the task, like fire warriors for hoard suppression, or crisis suits for the big threats.

OP's custom BTL build:



After playtesting this interesting compromise, I must say its benefits have served in a fashion i did not quite expect, and at a level above expectations. It is unbelievably satisfying to see your opponents face when 3 of his vehicles have disappeared from the table when only 1 squad has fired. This unit does exceptionally well against rhino/razorback spam, and even though the shots are only a 75% chance to hit, when you're targeting single units with each individual gun, with 3 full teams of 3 broadsides, you're cracking 7 vehicles on average on your very first turn of shooting. most of my games with this list against the aforementioned lists were leaning towards 8 vehicles suffering successful damage results first turn. The experience has dictated that the potential 9 vehicle kills per turn has been grossly underestimated here.

That being said, the results are catastrophic against light armor of AV10-11. If you're going first, its incredibly difficult for your opponent to hide all the armor of an armor heavy list from 9 independently firing railguns, AND grant all exposed vehicles a cover save. If you're going second, you'll be setting up the perfect firing lanes for where your opponent will HAVE to be when he approaches you.

Against AV12+, its got similar success rates to the BASS unit build, as you can simply choose to stack the railguns on the same target if you really need to.

Its cons though, were well summarized by earlier posts though.
Lack of mobility means lack of flexibility, and a savvy opponent knows that the 50% cover save is crucial for survival against broadsides. The gun drones, while a cheaper alternative, hinder the squad in Dawn of War scenarios. Often, the opponent shoots heavy weapons at this squad, and it is much more difficult to get the broadsides into cover in this scenario. Combine those issues, and this list's anti armor is effectively shut down first turn. Yes, all shooting is crippled this first turn usually, However, I am a firm believer of trying to take advantage of this as much as possible. The ability to move your railguns and fire on first turn with the BASS build is lost here. At least the BASS build has a possibility of doing it. The lack of cover from moving on the board creates a situation where, when the opponent fires heavy weapons on you in the second turn, you have to decide whether to remove the gun drone and risk leadership, or take a save on the shield drone and potentially lose a model that could be allocated 2+ armor saves to. Even when in cover, if the opponent has long range AP3-6 guns that spam your broadsides with multiple wounds, the gun drones cannot take a 2+ save, The guns on the gun drones serve little, if any benefit, since the broadsides are almost always in the very back of your fire base, where the 18" guns aren't in range until your first line of defense is in assault range/being assaulted. The 5 additional points have always been well worth the investment, and gun drones have proven a suitable substitute only in low point games where every point counts and every benefit must be weighed carefully. In a 2500 point setting, the cost is negligible, but its effects go a long way.


With that critique of the common and proposed Broadside load outs out of the way, I'd like to allow you to consider the Broadside build I run.

Broadside leader- ASS, HWTL, HWMT, BK, HWDC + 2 shield drones,
Broadside - Target Lock, TL Plasma Rifles(optional)
Broadside - ASS
285 Points (295 with TLPR)

I typically run 2 such squads, with a skyray equipped with a BSF for night fight markerlight assistance, but that is a discussion for another time.

As I mentioned before, I like to keep my options open, I like the option to fire my guns on the move if I desperately need to, but having a counter for vehicle spam I think is crucial for Tau, and the power of 2 TL upgrades in a broadside squad is incredible. During my games, when the ASS upgrade became truly crucial was when the target in question was positioned to get as close to the edge of a LOS blocking object without exposing itself. Players have made it a habit to get their vehicles as close to the 'edge' of this LOS area as possible without touching it. A BASS unit that takes advantage of this with markerlight support is a force to be reckoned with, but it almost never gets all 3 guns into the LOS area needed. allocating 1 other railgun to another target prevents a wasted opportunity, and with the optional plasma rifle on the 3rd model, you have a chance to simultaneously provide ap2 suppression fire on a target 24" away (crucial to this is the fact that the SMS cannot be fired on the move without ASS while the plasmas can. they are rapid fire). When movement is not crucial, you have exactly the same efficiency of the OP's build, and markerlights can provide the accuracy boost that is expected of a TA upgrade. wound allocation is also inherently provided to maximize survival.

Its a complex build, but it has served my army for the greater good with great success thanks to its great flexibility in a wide array of situations.

tehlegend,

Just a quick reminder: the Advanced Stabilisation System is an upgrade that requires all models in the team that takes it to be purchasing it- meaning if you want it, you have to buy it for everyone. No exeptions.
You'll find the rules on page 25 of the Tau Codex, last paragraph of the Advanced Stabilisation System entry.

...

... That is an unbelievable dissappointment. Someone please delete that page long essay of now-useless ranting...

"Delete"? I don't really see the point: the topic (and your post, of course) contains interesting information and debate; as such, deleting even a portion of the text would be a waste.

I actually enjoyed reading your last post, for example, as it did give me a couple of ideas and/or food for thought over a Broadside Team's possible composition.

Be more confident in yourself

When I started off with Tau, I always used 3 times 3 broadsides.
Later on, I added plasma rifles, and even later I added ASS.
Now the last tactic was the only good one, but I still lost a lot of games, probably because I play 1500-1750 games.
Therefore I have adapted the following strategy. My current tournament list:
- 2 times 1 broadside TL with ASS, plasma and shield drones.
- Hammerhead as anti-infantry
- 2 full Crisis teams with plasma, fusion and multitracker
-backed up by 2 HQ units with about the same configuration, plus a Positional Relay!
-1 Crisis team of 2 members, using a Fusion blaster, missile pod and multi-tracker. 1TL with a target lock.
-Pathfinders
-troops, fast, etc. etc.

The important part is the last Crisis unit. Whenever I see those rhino-walls coming, I deep strike the 2 suits behind them. By then my other suits are close enough (within 12 inch). 1 suit has the following chance:
1 fusion shot, 0.5 percent to hit, 35/36 to penetrate AV10 = about 0.5
2 missile pod shots, 0.5 to hit, 0.16 to glance and 0.5 to penetrate =0.5 penetrate + 0.16 glance
If It doesn't work out, I have the broadsides, if they would also miss, there is the HQ units left.
I won't count the entire chance, but they have never failed me before...
Once the units disembark, mostly 10 of them, I markerlight them.
Let's say I didn't use the HQ to blow the rhino:
8 suits times 3 shots = 24 shots.
BS5 so 20 hits. s6 vs most toughness'es of 4 = 2+ to wound = 17 wounds. all ap2 ap1. .

For those who paid attention: there's going to be 20 marines out there, so I still need 3 more wounds!
For those guys, I get the Fire Warriors out of their 'fish: 24 shots, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 2.66 die. +1 BS would make 3.2 wounds
Then I jump back to safety, the FW will act as a screen of really necessary, otherwise the devilfish will.


Ok, to conclude this long post: in one turn, you have cleared 2 rhino's and 20 marines; meaning the other rhinos are definitely too far away to reach your suits in time. This tactic has one huge problem though: If you meet orks, you'll have to rely on the Hammerhead...
But around here, I got 70 percent chance to face off against marines in the last (hardest, hopefully) battle, so this technique got me from middle tournament position to higher when I get marines, and lower when I get nids. Since middle never gets you a prize, I think it's worth the bet

Hope I inspired someone for the Greater Good
Kern



P.S.: the deepstrikers can be rerolled by the pathfinders, so place them as close as you can to reach that rear armour

Upon further field testing, my loyal shas'vre have reported meeting higher and higher numbers of incredibly tough marines backed up with some of their best medical personnel (aka Blood Angels). This has prompted a response by the Joint Fire and Easte Castes Advanced Research Initiative (J-FEAR-I for short). Although the Lock-side team continues to see use, one lock-side team has been reconfigured as a Plasma-Side team while the third team retains the advanced stabilisation system.

The plasma side team creates a 24" virtual no-go zone for certain heavily armored infantry as the sheer amount of destructive weaponry nets on average 3.75 dead marines at the medium engagement envelope while netting an astonishing 5.63 dead marines once targets have hit the final protective fire line -predicated that cover is not present and that no pathfinders have been allocated for target identification and ranging.

my current configuration for high point games revolves around three squads equipped as follows:

Lock-Side Squad
Team Leader w/ shield drone, gun drone, target lock
Shas'ui w/ target lock
Shas'ui w/ 2x gun drones
[270]

Plasma-Side Squad
Team Leader w/ 2 shield drones, target lock, multitracker, plasma rifles
Shas'ui w/ plasma rifles, multi-tracker
Shas'ui w/ plasma rifles, multi-tracker
[295]

Whether you are bubble-wrapping, splitting your forces, creating two small bubble wrap areas at either end of the field, or some other strategy; you'll usually find that one side of your force is more mobile than the other (barring a perfectly symmetrical deployment). The side that's more mobile gets the BASS. The more static portion of your list (probably portected by kroot walls and sheltering your p-finders) wil get the lock-side squad. Somewhere in between I usually deploy my plasma sides. This way they can usually contribute massed plasma fire to whatever end of your line is most likely to get assaulted.

Here is a simplified diagram of what I am trying to say ('cause pictures are worth a thousand words)


that's how I've been deploying my broadsides (more or less). The plasma sides are a worthy expenditure of 25-30 points as they significantly contribute to anti-meq firepower and anti-TMC. You are still able to target 7 different vehicles with the various target locks, you can on average penetrate 4.5 times against AV12 vehicles per turn with the nine railguns with an astonishing .495 chance to penetrate AV12 with a single railgun (especially useful against leafblower IG)

Don't forget that plasma-sides are still somewhat mobile. They can advance (or retreat) 6" and still lay down a blistering 6 twin-linked plasma shots. I"ve often offered up my plasma-sides as sacrificial lambs after a salvo of rapid plasma to give my crisis suits a chance to escape. The sides are too dangerous to be allowed to live, too slow to really get away quickly against fast assaulters, and are less likely to be in a position to contest objectives at the end of the game. Usually, by turn 2-3 the majority of the Broadside's work is done anyway.

Those are my continuing thoughts on B-sides in high point games.

Also remember that a Broadside doesn't count as moving when firing Rapid Fire weapons, as per rules presented on the Tau Codex under the "XV88 Broadside armour" entry, on page 27.. This makes the 'tracker even more of an interesting upgrade.

EDIT: added the page number and fixed the wording to reflect what is written on the codex better.

Is there a reason why you don't use HWMTs/HWTLs on your team leaders and add a targeting array?

It's mostly a points thing. I've found that, so far, hitting 75% of the time with my twin-linked weapons works for me. Should I feel particularly concerned, I will dedicate pathfinders to helping out the railguns.

This is especially true when running 3 squads as 30 points is enough to get me team leaders or bonding knives or more shield drones or any number of other little things. I would rather have my fireknife 'el and 'vres firing at BS4/5 than my twin-linked shots shooting at BS4.