Perhaps I should preface my statement a bit.
In our group, and in most tournaments in our area, units with Infiltrate that take a Transport can Outflank. The logic being, the unit has the Infiltrate Special Rule, but can not use it. If you play it this way, then there is no other way to play Krootox then to allow them to Outflank.
This is because all the models in the Kroot Carnivore Squad have two special rules.
Fieldcraft: which a definition is provided for
and
Infiltrate: which another definition is provided for

We know this to be true because if it wasn't we would not know that a kroot carnivore squad that takes krootox could not infiltrate. Therefore that special rule Infiltrate, which is defined right there in the codex, applies to a unit with a krootox. It triggered and told us that we can not infiltrate because one was present.

After discussing it with the gamers in my area, I think that if you play Infiltrators w/ a dedicated transport can NOT outflank, then yes, you are not allowed to outflank kroot carnivore squads with krootox. That is because this would be consistent with, "may not infiltrate" and "can not infiltrate". I can see the argument to not allowing either, I really can. We happen to play that units with infiltrate in a dedicated transport can outflank. The logic being "they have the special rule but can not use it."
This identical logic applies to the Krootox+Kroot Carnivore Squad. The logic that neither can use it would be because both have "lost" the USR due to the statements "can not infiltrate" and "may not infiltrate". The Outflank rule applies only to units with Scout and Infiltrate, and if the USR is lost, the caveat for allowing transports would not apply.

Anyways, we're talking about Krootox who have sucked for ever and ever. This makes them actually usable and "sorta" viable. I mean it's a single BS3 S7, in no way is this game breaking.

I'd have to agree from a logical point of view that yes, you're allowed to outflank with Krootox as part of the squad. I think from a practical play point of view though, it'd be well worthwhile sitting down with an opponent and pointing out what you plan, and have the relevant rules available.

Going to a tournament? I'd suggest you contact the organizers with this, give them page references, and let them make a ruling. That way you're not giving them a nasty surprise, and you've already shown due diligence.

Looking at it from a "real world" perspective, yeah, why not outflank with them? I understand it's a bit hard to infiltrate enemy lines with a krootox in tow ("Hey Sarge, that's a huge monkey behind that tree..."), but going round a flank makes sense.

I'll be playing on sunday, I might just give this a bash.

I completely agree with doing due diligence. The only caveat I would add, and this stems more from my personal pet peeve with double standards, is that I would not agree that Kroot + Krootox can not Outflank, but a unit with Infiltrate + Transport can Outflank.

Either both have the Infiltrate special rule only "can not use it" there by qualifying for the Outflank rule

Or neither can Outflank. This would because you are slicing "can not" and "may not"... Really?

Surely as long as your opponent agrees with it it's fine. I mean it's all about having a good time and having fun isn't it, not looking for little rules to pick at so that you can stomp your opponent.

I personally think that it is OK because if it works background wise it would make sense using it in the game. If my opponent was unhappy about it I wouldn't do it.

The key here is that there are two things named "Infiltrate" within the warhammer rules:

The Rule: Infiltrate
The rule grants the unit which possesses it two abilities, Infiltrate (The ability) and Outflank.

The Ability: Infiltrate
The ability which is granted from having the Infiltrate special rule. Note: This is the ability with is performed during the infiltrate phase. It could be said that it could be said that you invoke the infiltrate ability, which refers to a section of the infiltrate rule to define its behavior, when infiltrating your forces during the deployment phase.

The kroot w/ krootox rule prevents the unit from utilizing the infiltrate ability but does not remove the infiltrate rule; allowing the unit to still outflank.

Hmmm, I came in here all ready to shoot down your theory but after reading everyone's input as well as rereading the codex and BRB sections another several times each I realised that I simply can not argue the logic against you...

All Kroot Carnivore squads have the Infiltrate USR care of the codex, it is right there in bold, exactly how it works for every other 4th ed codex with a specail ability that continues in 5th ed as a USR.



Having this USR allows the use of the 'infiltration deployment method' as well as the 'outflank reserves deployment method'.

The codex does however also have additional caveat, and the BRB (pg 74) says you play by any additional rules a codex may include, that only permits use of the infiltration deployment method when not including any Krootox Riders.

The * marked portion is redundant as all missions now permit use of infiltration deployment if a unit has the correct USR and no further limiting factors (such as a dedicated transport).

The final part of the rule directs to the relevant infiltration deployment method which existed as 'scenario special rule' during 4th ed.



The only 'catch' here is that there is no longer a "scenario special rules" section from which to be granted access to or information regarding the method of Infiltration deployment. However, the method is fully explained in the USR section of the 5th ed BRB and as mentioned previously, a Kroot carnivore squad, regardless of limitations upon how it may use the USR, does have the 5th edInfiltrate USR.

This does seem remarkably clear cut but I can see how an alternative interpretation may have been made and become ingrained in player's minds for quite an extended period of time (like me before today). As such I would still seek to clarify with TO's prior to building your list for a major competition. I am sure that the logic throughout this thread should be enough to see the ruling made in your favour but there is no accounting for how people may react when their long standing interpretations are challenged, not everyone is as cool as me

I think we will give the thread a couple of days (considering global time differences) for a rebuttal before we lock this one down and also change the information in the thread the OP linked which it appears may now contain incorrect information.

Actually, strictly RAW, it does not. A Kroot squad has the ability to infiltrate, it does not gain the infiltrate USR*. This means, among other things, that:

1) A Kroot squad does not gain the ability to outflank. The outflank ability is granted by the USR, which Kroot do not have.

2) A Kroot squad may infiltrate in a transport. The restriction on infiltrating while embarked on a transport is part of the USR, Kroot merely have the ability to infiltrate without any mention of vehicles. Of course for this to be of any use, you will need to convince your opponent that you may take a Devilfish as a troops choice, not just as a dedicated transport (arguably true RAW, but not a popular opinion).

3) A Kroot squad may infiltrate even if an independent character without the Infiltrate USR has joined the squad. Again, the Kroot ability applies to the entire unit and does not say anything about independent characters preventing it.


Now, if you do not like these conclusions and wish to change the rules (not entirely unreasonable, since this is a 4e/5e difference) to say that "may infiltrate" means "has the infiltrate USR", the answer to the original question is simple: if you have** a Krootox in the squad, you do not have the USR, and therefore can not outflank.


*Note the difference between Infiltrate and "may infiltrate". Units with the actual USR either simply list "Infiltrate" under their list of special rules, or have a sentence such as "the unit gains the Infiltrate USR".

**Amusingly, the entry uses the present tense. If you bought the squad with a Krootox and can somehow figure out a way to remove it from the squad before the unit deploys (whether at the beginning of the game or outflanking from reserve), you immediately regain the USR and may use its benefits.

I'm afraid you're mistaken.
Please take a look at the RAW.

By RAW, it has nothing to do what-so-ever with any mention of "USR". There is no need to have a "universal" added to the rule, if it's a "special rule" then it applies. That is the RAW. If we take a look at at the criteria for Outflank:
Does the unit have either the Scout or Infiltrate special rules? If so, then they may Outflank.
When you look at the codex, in bold print it reads:

Do you mean to imply that this is not "special rule Infiltrate"?
Because I'm afraid I don't know how much more clear plain English it can get.

Lastly, the unit either has the Infiltrate USR or it does not. I'm sorry, but the strange scenario you're describing can not exist in game terms because the only way to place the models onto the table after deployment is if you have the special rule, in this case Universal Special Rule, Infiltrate.

When we look at the rulebook, there is no such thing as "the infiltrators scenario special rules".
Now, we can either agree, that they have Special Rule: Infiltrate, which tells us to look at the Rulebook for the Special Rule:Infiltrate found on p76. or we can agree that they can not and never could, in 5th edition, Infiltrate.

Furthermore, if you look at the Army List page (who's number escapes me) you will see a definition of how the special rules work. This will read somewhere close to the following (taken from C:DE)

So rules in this section, in this case Fieldcraft & Infiltrate, apply to the models in the unit. Are Krootox a model in the unit? Yes, they are. Therefore those two rules apply to them. So krootox definitely have the special rule Infiltrate as defined in Codex:Tau Empire.

Those are some strange scenarios you're describing that are simply not RAW. As every Tau player and 40k player I have ever encountered allows Kroot to Infiltrate, then it is quite clearly an understanding that the special rule Infiltrate, that is listed on p37 of C:TE which tells us to reference the BRB, is indeed the Infiltrate USR. Again, it either is and we have all been playing it correctly, or it isn't and everyone of us who takes Kroot has been cheating/playing it incorrectly. I'm afraid there isn't a grey area on this, because what you're describing is using a rule that doesn't exist in the 40k game world.

As I see that the Infiltrate special rule tells us to look at the BRB for it's rule, I think that is sufficient enough to indicate we are referencing Infiltrate USR. So your examples, 1-3 are all not based on RAW. They either have the USR Infiltrate which allows them to be deployed on the table using the USR Infiltrate, thereby having Outflank, or they have an unusable rule which no longer exists anywhere and your scenario #3 wouldn't work.

That's the rub right there.
You've completely nailed it EXACTLY!

Either Kroot and every model in the squad has the Infiltrate USR, because they have special rule:Infiltrate, and we have been playing it correctly, or they have a rule that does not exist in 5th edition and therefor cannot use it.

It would effectively make Kroot worthless. The unit either has the USR Infiltrate and can Infiltrate and Outflank(regardless of whether it has a krootox or not) or they don't have Infiltrate, and everyone who has ever infiltrated with Kroot or Outflanked with Kroot has been "cheating". (I say that loosely because obviously it's not done intentionally, but it wouldn't have been within the confines of the rules)

Actually, I take that back. Kroot would ONLY be able Outflank, never Infiltrate. This is because they have the "Infiltrate" special rule, which effectively does nothing but only makes them eligible for the Outflank rule criteria. Do they have Special Rule Infiltrate? Yes they do have Special Rule Infiltrate.

Since the Tau codex was written before the Infiltrate USR ever existed, yes, I think it's a safe bet that the authors did not have the USR in mind when they wrote it.



This is not true at all. If a unit has a rule that says "this unit may make a scout move if it is deployed in the left half of the table", it only gains that one specific ability. It does not gain the Scouts USR, nor does it gain any other ability tied to that USR (such as the ability to outflank).

The same is true of the Kroot. They have a rule that grants them part of the benefits of the Infiltrate USR, but not the USR itself.



So? The reference to the rulebook is not the rule, it is merely a helpful reminder about where to find the rules for how to infiltrate. All that matters is the "may infiltrate" sentence.



Or we can agree that in 5th edition they may infiltrate without having the Infiltrate USR.



This is not true at all. You have two choices here:

1) Play it RAW. If a squad of Kroot does not have a Krootox, it may infiltrate. It does not have the Infiltrate USR, which means (among other things) that it may not outflank.

2) Change the rules so that "may infiltrate" is replaced by "gains the Infiltrate USR". In this case, "gains the Infiltrate USR" has the condition that the squad does not have a Krootox. If it has one, it does not have the USR (much like a squad joined by the wrong independent character loses the USR as long as the character is present). If it does not have one, it gains the full USR and may infiltrate or outflank as desired.



The fact that the scenarios are strange does not change the fact that they are RAW. This is what happens when the main rules change but GW refuses to update the codices to reflect the changes.


They had better allow Kroot to infiltrate because there is a clear and indisputable RAW statement that says they can.

This does not, however, prove that they have the Infiltrate USR. As I've said, you can use some of the benefits of a USR without actually having the USR.



Or, option #3: they have an old rule (similar to the Infiltrate USR, but not identical) which allows them to infiltrate, and still works just fine. Like it or not, this is the case.

You seem to misunderstand me. I know that they did not have this specific USR in mind, however my point has absolutely nothing to do with a "USR", and everything to do with being a "special rule" called... "infiltrate".
Are you saying that the rule written in the Kroot carnivore entry is not a special rule Infiltrate?
The Kroot have their own Special Rule:Infiltrate.
Every model in the squad has this rule and it's definition is provided immediately after it in the codex.
Since the codex was written in 4th, we have "assumed" that Kroot have the USR based on the reference to the Infiltrate rule in the BRB.

Players felt that this was indicative enough to point to the USR Infiltrate.
Since 5th edition started players have infiltrated their Kroot. Either all of those players and their assumptions are wrong, which by strict RAW they are, or it's a fair assumption to make given the use of the rule.
Please show me where in the 5th edition rule book this type of interaction exists because I know that it doesn't. From RAW, please provide a quote where there is a description of a "scout move" and not reference the USR Scout.
You will not find a definition. From a RAW perspective, if the codex says they may make a "scout move" then by strict RAW that means absolutely nothing, because our understanding, yours and mine, of what a "scout move" is, is outside of the context of the rules as written.

Okay, see this is exactly what I've been referring to, that simply just does not exist and you're making an "assumption". There is no "benefit" of a rule. You either have the rule which grants the ability or you don't have the rule and it's abilities. What you're describing just doesn't work, don't you see that? The rule has to apply to you in order for you to use it's abilities. There is no such thing as a "scout move" outside of the context of the scout USR. If you do not have the Scout USR you are not able to make a special move. That's if you are following the RAW.


Why is this important? Because from a strict, strict RAW sense it does not work. They have a special rule Infiltrate that references a rule that no longer exists. And what is "infiltrating"? Not trying to be obtuse, but you continue to think in "real world terms" instead of the written context and are choosing to make assumptions, but not others. As a player who has played since 2nd Ed, I can tell you for certainty, that just because you and I "know what Infiltrating is", in a RAW context, you are looking at the written rules only. From a pure RAW perspective if it's not written it does not exist. What you're describing 100% does not exist anywhere in the 5th Edition rulebook. Please provide a quote that describes how to "infiltrate" outside of the Infiltrate USR. I think you'll be very hard pressed to find an example.


No, now you know that simply can't happen, because if they don't have the Infiltrate USR, in a game sense we don't know what "infiltrate" is, else... how do we define Infiltrate? The rules provide the structure and definition of the term within the context of 40k 5th Edition. In RAW it's 100% about what's written and not what "we know" from our previous experiences.
Okay, first you aren't even quoting the RAW. Please see my quotes.
"If the squad does not contain a Krootox rider it may infiltrate if the mission permits it. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for the infiltrators scenario special rules."
Another way to write this sentence without changing it's definition is "If the squad does contain a Krootox it may not infiltrate if the mission permits it. See the warhammer 40,000 rulebook for the infiltrators scenario special rules."
And what is "infiltrate" outside of the context of the USR? Can you find where a unit may infiltrate with out this rule? Honestly? I know that you won't be able to because in the RAW context, it doesn't exist. So, the unit either has the Infiltrate USR and can use the ability defined in that rule set which is identical to the old "infiltrators scenario special rule" or they have a special rule: Infiltrate which does nothing.

As I said above, if you Infiltrate your Kroot, as almost everyone does, then you are making the assumption that they have the USR Infiltrate. This is because without this USR, they cannot infiltrate. Because in game terms... infiltrate does not exist without this USR.


The 2nd option is not what's written so isn't even an option. Furthermore, the correct way to re-write that sentence is as I've written it above.
"If the squad does contain a Krootox it may not infiltrate if the mission permits it. See the warhammer 40,000 rulebook for the infiltrators scenario special rules."
As I quoted originally... this is identical to:

In this manner we have established logically that the presence of a krootox is identical to that of a unit with infiltrate taking a transport.

You with me so far?
Now, do you allow a unit with infiltrate who takes a transport to Outflank?
Here is the logic why a unit who cannot infiltrate, but has the special rule Infiltrate can outflank.

Interesting! So the only qualifier to use Outflank, is that they HAVE the special rule Infiltrate, not whether they can use it or not. You will also not that this does not say USR Infiltrate, nor does it say universal special rule Infiltrate. It just says the "Infiltrate" special rule. So the unit with a transport that can not infiltrate because of the transport, can in fact Outflank because they have a rule even though they can not use it. Sort of like;
"If you have cash in your wallet you may not use your credit card."
The card is still there in your wallet, but not usable.

Now, right here I have proved in strict RAW that Kroot + Krootox can Outflank.
Please take a look at p24 of C:TE

Are krootox part of the unit? Yes.
Then Krootox and the unit have the "Infiltrate" special rule.

Please do not confuse this "Infiltrate" with the "Infiltrate USR". It is, however, without a doubt in my mind the "Infiltrate" special rule, and again absolutely applies to the squad with or without Krootox. Because the unit has the "Infiltrate" special rule... they meet the criteria for this sentence AT ALL TIMES.


I know this has been rather lengthy, but for the life of me I can not NOT write a wall of text.
Do you agree with me now that Kroot+Krootox have Outflank by RAW?

See, but they aren't RAW. As I pointed out above, from a "strict" RAW, Kroot Carnivore squads have their own unique "Infiltrate" special rule.
This rule, if you were going strict RAW, does nothing. This is because there is no such thing as "Infiltrate" or "infiltrators special move" outside of the Infiltrate USR. It does however, grant them access/eligibility to the Outflank rule in strict RAW simply because they "have" the special rule "Infiltrate".


Dude, I totally agree.

See now this is interesting. Do you see how I proved that from strict RAW sense they do not get to Infiltrate, even though they may Outflank? I am not going to prevent a player from "infiltrating" Kroot, but in doing so I am making the assumption that they have gained the USR Infiltrate. Without the USR they are unable to infiltrate.


I think that I've accurately made my point after all of this. While they do have an old rule, if we are going to discuss RAW they can not and it does not "work just fine". It worked because you were making a logical assumption that you didn't realize. Simply put, you were granting them the Infiltrate USR under the presumption that you were allowing them the "benefit" of the rule. This isn't RAW. I hope you also don't think that I'm going to continue to press the Infiltrate USR issue because I feel that in practice we already do it, which is how players have been infiltrating Kroot, and in RAW that because of the reference to the BRB and the similarities between the two rules that Kroot do in fact have the USR.

Since this topic has been silent for a while now, I was wondering if we had in fact come to an agreement that the Krootox can, in fact, outflank.

If Krootox+outflank=true, then what, in your opinions would be the tactical implications of it?

I think a "tactics" discussion is best for another thread.
I've posted one here.

#Original Topic
I realize that I have been quite outspoken in this thread. If my demeanor/candor offended anyone, please accept my apologies. My tenor in responding was due to having a parallel discussion with an individual from my LGG who *absolutely refused* to read my responses. They literally "talked at me". It was incredibly frustrating as they never took into consideration what I'd written and it's validity, but doggedly repeated their point.

To summarize what I wrote above.
Kroot, Kroot Hounds, Kroot Shapers & Krootox all have two special rules.
Fieldcraft & Infiltrate
We know this because of p24 that says that these special rules apply to the unit. As all of these models are a part of the unit, they also have these rules.

Krootox have the Infiltrate Special Rule as defined in Codex: Tau Empire

A few players have read the Infiltrate special rule as the unit gains or loses this ability. It should be noted, that in RAW the Infiltrate Special Rule is a "noun", while what is described in the rule is a "verb" - I have "Infiltrate" so that I can "infiltrate". We know this because of the use and lack of capitalization within the rule text. All the rule describes is whether or not the unit may or may not infiltrate, not whether they gain or lose the Infiltrate Special Rule as defined in Codex:Tau Empire. The unit, and the models in the unit, simply "have" this rule.

The last important piece is that the only criteria for a unit to be able to Outflank is that they have the 'Infiltrate' Special Rule. As the unit has this rule they may Outflank when Krootox are a part of the unit.

Therefore, Kroot Carnivore squads may not "infiltrate" if they contain a Krootox, but they may outflank.



I apologize for the diatribe, but hopefully Tau players are able to follow that there is some life in regards to the krootox choice.