If you followed the thread here, you will note that I have "proven", or rather "explained" that Krootox do not, in fact, prevent a Kroot Carnivore squad from using the Outflank special rule.

While Krootox, much like the Shaper, have never been an excellent choice for the Carnivore squad, this function provides a significant boost to the unit in 5th. Now, before you think "ZOMG Krootox are the roxxor!", they are still cost prohibitive as they are the equivalent of 5x Kroot or even 6x Hounds. As always, it's important to weigh the pros and cons to their inclusion in any list.

One of the benefits behind including krootox in your list, is that you now have some light armor anti-tank in your troop selection. The other benefit is that you are able to include up to 3x Krootox in your carnivore squads. This means that with 5th edition being prone to "spamming" units, you could have anywhere from 3x to 18x S7 shots showing up on your opponents flank. I would hope that to achieve the higher end number (18) you realize that it limits you to larger games and cuts into your "suit" point allotments.

That being said there is a solid middle ground when it comes to taking these units.

In my experience, I have found that Kroot Carnivore squads are best kept between 130-140pts. I've had great success with 20x Kroot or 10x Kroot + 10x Hounds. So where does the Krootox fit into my current list?

The current build that I will be using is:
10x Kroot
4x Hounds
1x Krootox
(I am running two units like this)

This is a fairly well rounded and balanced unit. They have decent amounts of HTH attacks, a good number of shots against infantry, and now have the added benefit of being able to pop light tanks.

One configuration I have considered is:
10x Kroot
2x Krootox

The benefit of the krootox isn't readily apparent, but the benefit of multi-wound models in a low leadership unit should be. Ablative wounds reduce the odds that you are required to take a test. In the configuration above, think of it as potentially reducing 2 casualties for testing purposes. While not a significant boon, it's the same reason why we take more models to increase our threshold of leadership tests. The unit has a smaller foot print, and a smaller potential threat to your opponent.

Some quick and dirty math:
1x Krootox vs 5x Kroot/Hounds
3x wounds vs 5x wounds = +1 Kroot/Hounds
Multiple wounds for casualty purposes= +1 Krootox
(HTH) 4x S6 vs 15x S4 = 1.67 wounds to 3.75 wounds V T4 = +1 Kroot/Hounds (you will find that the Kroot/Hounds due to volume of attacks have greater odds at generating more wounds against >T6)
(Shooting) 1x S7 vs 5x S4 = 0.42 vs 1.25 wounds V T4 = +1 Kroot (doubled for Rapid Fire)
(AV10) 1x S7 vs 5x S4 = 33% vs 42% = +1 Krootox because only they can penetrate (25%)
(AV11) 1x S7 vs 5x S4 = 25% vs 0% = +1 Krootox because only they can penetrate/glance
(HTH v AV10) 4x S6 vs 15x S4 = 1 glance/pen vs 1.25 glance = +1 Krootox for the odds to penetrate it.

In general you will see that the Krootox still are not that great.
They do however offer some tactical advantages.
- Reduced foot print and perceived threat
- Improved odds against Light Armor
- Increased Combat Effectiveness threshold

The biggest boon will be to bringing S7 and S6 to bear on the side & rear armor of the Chimera Chassis as well as against Raider chassis.
That is the really the biggest "plus" in the competitive/tournament scene.
You'll still find that for the points the krootox are half as effective in HTH when compared to Kroot/Hounds
You will also find them less than half effective (33% roughly) for the points versus basic infantry.
Even in my example regarding combat effectiveness threshold the morale check is the same, check out the following:
(15xKroot) or (10xKroot + 6xHounds) VS (10xKroot + 1xKrootox)
4x unsaved wounds will yield a morale check on all 3.
(20xKroot) or (10xKroot + 10xHounds) VS (10xKroot + 2xKrootox)
5x unsaved wounds will yield a moral check on all 3.

Very nice, and it provides some insight into using a model I personally have never tried before.

I see the krootox being very useful in apocalypse games where the pooint limit can let you take all three krootox and use them as a threat to your opponents flanks and forces them into a killzone. Or, making him divert precious firepower to eliminate them while allowing different anti-tank forces to advance. After all, you can't hit everything at once can you?

Thanks for posting it, and maybe it'll open up some new tactical options to the new players. And maybe our new codex will make them better than the current version.

The small unit with three Krootox (not sure on numbers yet as it's not all sunk in yet) sound interesting as they do have that 48" range. That covers quite a distance when coming on from the sides, possibly forcing the enemy to travel a fair distance to stop them taking pot-shots at the rear of tanks. The threat of 3-6 S7 shots heading towards the back of a tank might let you place facing games given that at the other end of the field you'll be looking at Railguns.

Also means that a Kroot unit looking to outflank in order to take an enemy objective (or even just contest/threaten from a nearby wood) has the ability to knock out a transport bringing troops to deal with them. I'm definitely warming to the idea of the backfield (or should that be backwoods) Krootox.

It'd be interesting to compare them to a Deathrain, obviously they aren't as good at killing things - 2/3rds the price but with half the fire power (beyond 12") and not twinlinked. But they are troops and not elite slots and outflanking is definitely safer than a deep-strike or jumping up the board.

Actually, you didn't "prove" anything. At best, you have a (weak, IMO) argument that if you use an interpretation of obsolete rules that favors what you want to do, you can convince an opponent to allow you to outflank even with a Krootox in the unit. What do you plan to do when you play someone like me, who disagrees with your interpretation of the rules?



Remember, Krootox guns are rapid fire, you only get the full 48" range if you didn't move. It should be obvious why this is a problem when you're outflanking with the unit.

I'd second that the argument allowing the krootox to outflank is weak at best.

You'd still be better off buying extra kroot or kroot hounds for the purposes of leadership tests. For what you paid for two krootox, you could get 10 kroot, or almost 12 kroot hounds. With the additional 10 kroot it will take 5 unsaved wounds for a test which is the same as if you disposed of two wounds on the krootox. If you use kroot hounds you will need 6 unsaved wounds for a leadership test. If you are looking for using krootox to avoid leadership tests, a shaper will serve the same purposes better. He has just as many wounds as a krootox, gives the whole unit higher leadership AND costs less than a krootox. On top of all this, the extra wounds only help against shooting. In assault, any wounds allocated to the krootox will still count for combat resolution.Only if they are sitting within 18" of the board edge that you happen to show up on. Otherwise you are getting 0 Str7 shots at side armor.
You will get Str7 OR Str6 against side and rear armor. Being rapid fire, you can either shoot with the gun or assault, not both. If you are looking at rhinos (Which are more common than IG, or DE combined) There is no difference between shooting missile pods into the front vs the side and Deathrains are much more efficient than the krootox. IF the Kroot Gun was assault, it might be worth it since you could crack the transport, then assault the contents, however you are more likely to crack the transport then have all the kroot wiped out in the following turn by the disembarking unit. Plus Str6 in assault isn't that amazing anymore when it doesn't ignore armor, and doesn't ignore FNP on T4 models. You may wound most things on 2's but when they get an armor/invulnerable save and/or FNP you won't actually be killing much. IF they get the charge off on blood angels, THREE krootox will kill on average 1 marine. At over 100 points for those 3 models it just isn't worth it.

Remember, Krootox guns are rapid fire, you only get the full 48" range if you didn't move. It should be obvious why this is a problem when you're outflanking with the unit.[/quote]
I was imagining them deploying quite a way from the front lines, either close to the enemies board edge, but away from enemies that aren't an easy assault away or in a suitable terrain feature - running if need be. They would then be relying on their low threat, long range, distance and any suitable terrain to harrass and take potshots at rear armour in the second turn.

In that case you would still be better off deep striking deathrains. For the cost of 10 kroot with 1 krootox, you can get 2x BS4 deathrains. They would both show up from reserves at the same time, you would have more shots (Four Shots instead of 1-2), they would be more accurate (Twin-linked BS4), and you could shoot the turn you arrive (Assault 36" instead of Rapid Fire 48"). With the krootox you lose the element of surprise since you have to wait a turn to shoot. On top of that you're wasting all those points buying kroot, and their ability to hold an objective. If they are in a low threat position, almost all of the time, they are not anywhere near an objective. Even in the situation your opponent lets you outflank them, they are still bad. Outflanking (If they could) Sniper Drone Teams, or Vespid would be better for this purpose.

I've been playing around with the idea of Krootox in my head for a while now. The only merits I can see about including Krootox in your list is to have a more survivable form of S7 firepower in your list. Given that you have to take at least 10 Kroot minimum in order to field a Krootox means that you have 10 ablative wounds until your Krootox start coming under fire.

The objective thing is a point, but two death rains and a krootox with a kroot unit do very different things - for the specific task of taking out light vehicles, obviously a death rain would be better, even more so when you include the cost of the Kroot required to get the krootox.

However I don't think it's worth excluding the Kroot from this comparison though, the question is more is the upgrade of 2/3 or 1 1/2 death rains worth it to a unit of kroot or two to add the harrasing of light vehicles and the rear armour of tanks to their roles?

What an incredibly trite and argumentative stance you've adopted.
What's with the 2mo thread necromancy? Simply looking for a drunken argument?
What do you plan to do if you played someone like me who simply _Outflanked_ the Krootox? Would you pick up your little toy soldiers and go? Would you grab my hand and attempt to force me? Bizarre.

This is the RAW so it doesn't really matter if you think it's "weak", it's how the logic in the game works.

In this instance, taking the stance that the codex is "obsolete" or "outdated" is irrelevant. It's a valid rule set in 5th edition. From a logic standpoint, I *proved* my point. Saying "nuh-uhhh" doesn't change that. Look at the Outflank rule, there you will note that the only requirement to Outflank any unit in 5th Edition, is that they have "special rule Infiltrate".

Look at the Kroot Carnivore section and you will note another special rule. It is written in bold and then a definition of the rule is provided immediately following it. That is *a* special rule Infiltrate. Do you mean to suggest that this isn't a special rule? That this special rule is not called Infiltrate? To suggest that the Outflank rule is only referring to the USR, or anything else is an assumption, not RAW. Does the Kroot Carnivore Squad have a special rule called Infiltrate? Yes it does.

ASIDE: By RAW Kroot can not be placed after deployment using the Infiltrate USR because they don't have the rule. So why do you and everyone else allow it? Kinda arbitrary to actually break the rules in one place, but not follow them explicitly elsewhere don't you think?

To meet Outflank's criteria all the rule does is validate that the unit has "special rule Infiltrate". Do you have it Yes or No? The Kroot Carnivore Squad has it, and therefore can Outflank with Krootox.

Folks consistently forget that game theory is based on math and is comprised of mathematical proofs. You're looking to argue that the Kroot Carnivore Squad doesn't have the Infiltrate Special rule? That's fine.
Anyone is more than welcome to take that stance, but all one simply has to do is open the codex and the BGB, point to the Outflank rule and then to the Kroot Carnivore entry.

As far as how useful of a tactic this is... debate to your heart's content, but it is a legal tactic.

Perhaps before starting a fight and insulting me you could at least take the time to read your own thread? Had you done so, you would have noticed that Tastyfish revived the thread, I merely posted in it without noticing the necromancy.



Exactly. In a "friendly" game, I'd tell you to stop rules lawyering and find something better to do with my time if you refused. In a tournament, I'd call a judge over to explain things to you.

But maybe I should ask you the same thing? What would you do if I simply ignored everything your Kroot unit did and refused to remove models they "killed", moved as if they are not there, shot with units that they "locked in combat", and reported the game results to the tournament judge based on an objective score that does not include any objectives they "claimed"? Or what would you do if I decided that my Broadsides are allowed to outflank and started shooting railguns into your rear armor?



Except by strict RAW, the entire game is broken. Fine, by RAW have your Krootox outflank, but I guarantee I'm going to find a dozen RAW issues that go against you. For example, I hope you didn't take any special-issue weapons in your army, because there is no legal way to do so. Etc.



Not if it has a Krootox.



Err, what? RAW is perfectly clear there, as long as the unit does not contain a Krootox, it may infiltrate normally. Don't forget that you don't have to have the Infiltrate USR to infiltrate.



It would be nice if it was. Unfortunately, GW is either incapable of or unwilling to write a consistent set of rules, and the rules fall well short of "mathematical proofs". This isn't too bad if you're willing to go with the intent of the rules (which is usually pretty obvious), but you simply can not have a functioning game of 40k by using the standards of mathematical proofs.



It is not legal. At best, it is possibly legal based on a very weak RAW argument. And given that you don't even have an undisputed argument that RAW agrees with you (just look at the arguments in both this thread and your first one on the subject), why should anyone allow you to go against pretty obvious RAI?

Sorry, it was still on the front page without a lot of discussion.

paidinfull, Do you have any grand scale tournament backing you up on this ruling? Nova, Adepticon, ETC, Throne of Skulls, Ard Boyz, anyone? I don't see any sane TO favoring you while RAI is this clear.

And that is the thing really. RAI is clear on this issue and you're abusing rules using a RAW loophole where codex doesn't remove title "infiltrate" and instead remove the ability to "infiltrate". That's not a honest mistake or oversight on your part, you are knowingly, intentionally using that loophole to gain an advantage. Peregrine is too kind, around these parts you wouldn't find an opponent to play with you after pulling a stunt like this.

That's the rub though, it's not clear for RAI because of how other identical use cases are presented.
Please read the other topic and you will see exactly that point. There are explicit assumptions that are being made that aren't written anywhere. (I will explain at the end where they are made.)

Were that the case units with USR Infiltrate would not be able to Outflank if they took a transport. You are welcome to dispute that, but in doing so you are arbitrarily accepting one use case over another on the differences between "can not Infiltrate" and "may not Infiltrate" solely on the fact that it is an "accepted" usage, not that it is RAW. That is simply my point.

In terms of NOVA and Adepticon both of those FAQs have RAW errors and are intended to be used as guidelines only when playing and preparing for those specific tournaments. How long was the multiple Rune Priest 4+ against psychic abilities used incorrectly? Almost a year? That was in both their FAQs incorrectly prior to GW FAQing it. At the time I pointed a similar RAW discrepancy that the majority disagreed with. It's not about the majority perspective, it's about the explicit RAW logic as presented.

I find it incredibly silly that you refer to a disagreement in this as a "stunt" because you simply don't understand. The circumstances are identical in game theory to that of a unit with the USR Infiltrate and a dedicated transport. They are identical, but you are ignoring how they are identical and why both mechanics work. Take a look at why both work and you will understand my point. A TO arbitrarily concluding something has no relevance on whether or not it's actual RAW. An interpretation or misinterpretation has no bearing on whether or not it's RAW. When one plays a game with their friends, or any game, they're merely playing a _game_.

It's a game and the point isn't to win or lose or exploit some rule, but to have fun.

Similarly it's why Peregrine's stance of "what would you do", a confrontational approach that is so incredibly insulting. That is a "what're you gonna do about it" attitude and I can't imagine anyone, even yourself, being receptive to that approach. Nobody responds well to that attitude.

@Perergine
I've made my point. I've supported it with quotes and you've ignored them. This discussion is 2 months old and you've provided nothing that substantiates your stance. You even miss the fact that by RAW Kroot do not have the Infiltrate USR and yet you grant it to them every game.


You will note, that there is no such thing as the verb "infiltrate" or the "infiltrators scenario" in the 5th edition rulebook or it's FAQs. So no, you are 100% wrong in that your *assumption* is crystal clear. All mentions of "infiltrate" and it's derivatives are _assumed_ to be in reference to the Infiltrate USR. As players we make an unknowing assumption in logic that the Kroot Carnivore Squad have the USR Infiltrate. Find somewhere, anywhere in the rulebook that defines how to "infiltrate" outside of the USR Infiltrate. You won't because it doesn't exist, so how is that the Kroot Carnivore Squad are legally able to "infiltrate" if we don't first make the assumption that they have the Infiltrate USR? They can't. They have to have the Infiltrate USR to be able to use it's rule.

You, as a player, have already unknowingly granted the Kroot Carnivore Squad entry the Infiltrate USR. That is how the logic works, else you can not place the Kroot on the table after deployment. Using that exact logic, ties into why the instance of a unit with the Infiltrate USR and a dedicated transport may Outflank is identical. That is why this exchange is silly, you're not even aware you're doing something but stringently denying it's usage. You're ignorant to the foundation of your own actions.

The following is a rehash of everything that is stated here.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=17193&start=20&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

RAI is that a unit with the Infiltrate Special rule may Outflank.
By RAW there is no stipulation made that unit has to be able to use this ability or be permitted to use it, merely to have the Special Rule
RAW is that a unit with the Infiltrate Special rule can not Infiltrate if they take a dedicated transport
RAI is that the above unit may still Outflank

Kroot Carnivore squads have a Special Rule, Infiltrate. Its definition is provided right there in print. This special rule is never lost, as it is triggered when a Krootox is added to the squad. The addition of the Krootox initiates the same logic criteria that is _IDENTICAL_ to that of the above scenario.

Here are ALL of the rules in question:




There is no exception made in the Outflank rule for units with dedicated transports. It specifically refers to units that meet the above criteria, which is, units with the Scout or Infiltrate special rule.

So the units in question either always have the special rules or they lose it and gain it.

The widely accepted RAI is that the units always have the special rule only may not use it.

The thing is, if a unit takes a dedicated transport it may not infiltrate. You will note that this is exactly the same function and mathematical proof in the Krootox rule. Both units in question have a special rule Infiltrate. It just so happens that the Kroot one is defined there in the codex and folks can not wrap their heads around that. Assuming that all references are to the USR, when the criteria is as simple as "do you have a special rule Infiltrate". Check? You may Outflank.

If you are honestly not able to see that the two are identical, and simply refuse to accept the possibility that you are wrong and making assumptions that aren't RAW, then I think we are done here and this thread should be closed. It's not necessary for you to like me or to want to play a game with me, as from a RAW stance, I've proven my point.

I've actually played with an outflanking Krootox in my squad of Kroot several times locally, since getting the idea from here. It's far from imbalanced, and the people I've spoken with at the LGS seem to agree that while it's a stretch of an interpretation, the stretch doesn't unbalance it. But then again, I get a considerable amount of leeway at the LGS to try out new things or re-interpretations with the Tau (such as ignoring the 1500pt limit for Shadowsun).

I think this is one of those things that can be worked out with one's LGS. Honestly, even if it is a bit of an "ehhhh" interpretation of the rules, it in no way grants us an unfair advantage as Tau players. I also question GW's reason for not allowing the Krootox to infiltrate in the first place. Is it because it's "big"? Considering I know there are /vehicles/ that can outflank without a problem, I don't see why it's an issue for the Krootox to do so. The rules as written result in a dubious interpretation to allow the Outflanking Krootox. But I don't think it breaks the intention for them to be allowed to do so.

paidinfull, I do understand your point. Your whole house of cards is based on dedicated transports of infiltrator outflanking, which I don't agree. Here is why:

Infiltrate: If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate. Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve.

Scout: If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a dedicated transport vehicle, it confers the scout ability to the transport too. This rule also confers a special outflank move to units of scouts that are kept in reserve.

So scout vehicles are scouts but infiltrator vehicles are not infiltrators. And only units with infiltrate and scout rules can outflank. So care to guess which dedicated transport is actually permitted at p94? There is nothing to argue here, you chose to understand it your way, I do mine. Go bug GW if you need to.

Now important stuff.
Let's say I agreed with you. Bought bunch of oxen, prepared an army based on this tactic. Paid money to join Throne of Skulls. And denied this tactic at the first match. Will you compensate my expenses? Or should I be content with knowing that my army is correct by your interpretation?

Most likely I am going to be denied of this in every major tournament and get despised for this in every friendly game. Why am I doing this again? Because you said so? Thanks but no thanks.

Paidinfull I have read your other thread and I am sorry to say you have not "proven or explained" that a unit with a krootox can outflank. Personally I think they should be able to, hell if a raven wing army on bikes the size of cars can outflank then so should a krootox that is a vastly silent in comparison.

However the rules say "if the squad does not contain a krootox rider it may infiltrate". If they do take the krootox then they quite simply don’t have the infiltrate ability to use.

If you pulled this on me in an event I would probably laugh at you lots then fall on the floor laughing some more till I my ribs split.
As a house rule I don’t have a problem with it as such but pull this off at an event and you would find you just wasted a lots of points on something you can not do.

I wish it did work like this though cos I got 3 maxed out units or kroot with 3 ktootox each and it would rock to assault someone with them while outflanking =D but then that is why they denied us doing it in the first place I should think the Tau are not known for there hard hitting assault units so forcing us to keep our hardest hitting assault monster in our gun lines for deployment makes sense.

Of corse the other problem with your funny little idea is dice. There is no guarantee even with gear that they will turn up when or where you want them.... I know this the hard way, dice will wreck your plans if you rely on them to much. You also have the added problem of your opponent knowing that you are doing it so they will just move there units back a bit out of assault range. your could still shoot at them but lets be honest you will be able to shoot 18" on once you have moved at best and unless there is a lot of nice cover within 6" of the edge of the table your kroot will just get ripped to bits when the return fire kicks in.
Indeed in spearhead or dawn of war you are better off not bothering with outflank. In spearhead you can just hold them back and then bring them on from anywhere along the long table edge you chose this is so much more reliable placement wise but of corse you don’t know when they will turn up. in dawn of war so long as you get to deploy first you are best putting them up front as they can hold units up and be within rapid fire range from the get go else bring them on at the start and get ready to blow holes in things turn 2.

I used a unit of krootox a while back and just deployed them the good old fashioned way on the table glad I did cos a bunch of biker scouts outflanked and sped along the back of my lines. If I did not have the krootox there to deal with them in combat they could have done a lot of damage to my Tau. The big guns where kind of handy but as a counter assault unit they are very useful.

Maybe this should be added to the wish list for the next dex

And your attitude of "what are you going to do if I just ignore your objections and outflank them anyway, grab them out of my hands?" isn't confrontational? Or your accusation that I was drunk and looking for a fight?



Disagreeing with you is not the same thing as ignoring you. I've read all of your arguments, and I think they're weak at best.



Why? Please remember that you don't need the Infiltrate USR to infiltrate.



Page 92, under "infiltrators and scouts". The rule says "deploy their infiltrators", NOT "deploy their models with the Infiltrate USR", and tells you to do it using the process described in the USR on page 75. Whether you have the USR or some other rule telling you to temporarily act as if you do, you deploy using the same process.



This is not true at all. A unit embarked on a dedicated transport may not infiltrate, but it does not lose the Infiltrate USR. Kroot, on the other hand, do not have the USR in the first place. Even if you assume that Kroot have the Infiltrate USR when they don't have a Krootox in the squad, there is a very strong argument that, by RAI at minimum, if not RAW, they lose that ability entirely when they take a Krootox.

=====================================================================



Sure, I agree that it would make sense to change the rules to allow Kroot squads with Krootox to outflank, and (in my opinion at least) it certainly wouldn't be overpowered. In the next codex, assuming nothing else changes that would make it overpowered, I'd like to see this restriction removed and Kroot get the standard Infiltrate USR. If nothing else, it would simplify things a lot, and not force you to leave the Krootox at home if you want to outflank the squad at any point in a tournament with fixed lists.

The problem is that, as this thread proves, the subject is a controversial one, with most people agreeing that the rules don't actually allow you to do this. This puts it in the same category as all other custom units/house rules/etc, they can be fun to play with if you and your opponent agree to change the standard rules in that way, but they aren't really something you can base your army around for tournaments or pickup games against unknown opponents.

The Kroot squad may infiltrate if and ONLY if there is no Krootox rider. Not to mention the Krootox aren't even worth this much arguing for what little they do and how fragile they actually are. Just take a unit of 20 Kroot and 10 hounds and use it as an outflanking hammer and you'll pretty much smash apart anything you touch (I've had a squad of 20 with 5 hounds kill a ten man unit of Space Wolf marines in a round of combat. The basic ones.). Is this guy for serious or is he just trolling at this point? I'm starting to think he's just trolling the community honestly.

To hit on an old cord(ie the thread this one is leaning on) you must also consider GW's general lack of effort to prevent things like this in the event of a new codex/edition etc etc. As a GK player, I'll use the old codex as an example. GK's weren't exactly "competitive" before the latest codex, mostly because its about as old as the current Tau codex. Grey Knights got the shaft on some things as new Space Marine codices came out, but they also got some nifty toys. Infinite range psychic hood? Hurricane bolters on Land Raiders that could ALWAYS fire? Those are two the cool things, but some things like the Assault cannon never got upgraded and sucked back then. People started to complain, and what did GW do? They released a FAQ that essentially said it's fair to play with the old stuff, and if your opponents agree, even change the rules to make them up to par with newer versions of the same gear(for the same points).

The general point is that when it comes down to it, especially on an issue like this, it comes down to "popular" opinion and what your opponent will agree to. Trying to do something like this at a tourney will not likely go over well.