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Shas'Saal
- shasolozo
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 06:56 |
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Joined: Jan 30 2012 08:17 Native English speaker?: Yes
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Fio El's Workshop wrote: shasolozo wrote: That being said, Brimstone and Maelstrom fit in with the communities naming conventions: "Fireknife", "Helios", "Firestorm", "Thunderstorm", "Blinding Spear", "Burning eye" etc don't follow the conventions you've put forth, but are accepted by the community. ... What I'm trying to do (for the third time now!) is to start a discussion on how the forgeworld loadouts should fit into the existing naming vernacular.
For example:
“Blade/Knife”=Plasma Rifle “Ion”= Cyclic Ion Blaster “Fire”=Misslepod “??”= SMS “??”=Markerlight
Firstly, a short piece of history about the community accepted naming conventions: Way back before ATT, there was MTT - Mechanised Tau Tactica, an MSN group. The Tau were a new race, young and inexperienced - the novel Crisis Battlesuit and its many and varied weapon loadouts had still to be fully tested and evaluated. It was here that the current nomenclature (and the now redundant Fish of Fury) was born, as a type of shorthand to make it easier to write some of the more overly long winded loadouts in army lists and battle reports. Over time, the better, and more useful weapon combinations were so widely used they were found to be worthy of their pseudonym. Other, less useful loadouts still have names under the convention, but since virtually nobody actually uses them they remain mostly unknown compared to the Fireknife, Deathrain and such. You might notice that non-XV8-weapon systems such as the drone controller, the smart missile system, the blacksun filter, the disruption pod and the markerlight were only given letters as shorthand - DC, SMS, BSF, DP and ML respectively. There is your answer right there.The accepted naming convention for non-XV8-weapon systems is to shorten its name down to a few letters. Forgeworld taking a heavy smart missile system, usually found only on Devilfish and XV88s, and plonking it onto an XV81 chasis doesnt just magically change its designation from SMS to some cool sounding adjective. If the SMS were to become available as a wargear choice for XV8 suits there might be a case for a new designation - such as when the AFP and CIB were introduced. But it isn't. The XV81 has an SMS, thats why its called an XV81. You cant change that on the suit, its not exchangable - you get an XV81, you get an SMS. Everyone knows this already. Why does it need another name? To sound cool? So you can get credit for coming up with it? Its superfluous. The whole idea of the naming conventions is shorthand. Not so something sounds cool. 'Fireknife' is easier to write than 'Plasma rifle and Missile Pod and multitracker'. The fact that it also sounds cool is just a bonus. By all means, use your preferred name whenever you want, however you want. Just don't expect everyone (or anyone) to agree or even understand what you are talking about when you use it. There have already been other names put forward *within* this thread, and pretty much any adjective can be slapped on and argued for. For example: What about using 'Blind' because it doesnt need line of sight, or 'A.I.' because the missiles of the SMS are controlled by Drone artificial intelligence, or my favourite - 'Foooooooshhhommmmm!!!', because thats the sound the missiles make when they launch. All of these are as relevant and fitting as your choice of 'Brimstone'. You might not think so, but thats not my problem. Remember, its the in-game usefulness of the loadout combination that over time eventually gains it a widely accepted pseudonym, not how cool it sounds. And the XV81 is never going to gain that amount of in-game usefulness. Ever. I sincerely apologize from the bottom of my heart for trying to add something to the community following existing conventions. You've successfully deterred me. I really appreciate the smug and patronizing tone towards the end, thanks. I came here expecting adult conversation that was constructive and collaborative, you've shown that's obviously not what you're here for. Thanks. Tastyfish wrote: shasolozo wrote: Why not? I'm following naming conventions as they exist and you seem to be calling GW's and the online communities conventions into question. Keep in mind that many of these configuration names seem to be names the imperials use when referring to the Tau technology, this happens quite often when cultures clash, see "Bouncing Betty", "Charlie", and "Bee Hive" are all good examples of Vietnamese technology or people that weren't words the Vietnamese used to refer to the same items. Most of the Tau codex is written from an outside perspective, not an inside perspective. It's also written in english, not Tau.
Let's take some example of names from the Tau Codex itself and put them up to the premise you've created.
"Devilfish"- The Tau don't have devils, and aren't inclined to displays of divine favor.
"Damocles Crusade"- Again, examples of tau's language of "divine favor"
"Hammerhead, Piranha, Tetra, Manta, Orca "- The Tau don't have any of these sea creatures on their planet. These are specific species names in most cases. Why would they name their tanks after sea creatures from millions of light years away? Their names give absolutely no practical indication of their use or function either, just "sound cool".
That being said, Brimstone and Maelstrom fit in with the communities naming conventions: "Fireknife", "Helios", "Firestorm", "Thunderstorm", "Blinding Spear", "Burning eye" etc don't follow the conventions you've put forth, but are accepted by the community. What does not fit into name convention is what you're suggesting. I'm not looking to create a backstory on the XV81-84, the Imperial Armor book already did that. What I'm trying to do (for the third time now!) is to start a discussion on how the forgeworld loadouts should fit into the existing naming vernacular.
The vehicle names are Imperial designations (a Devilfish is also smaller type of Manta ray, famous for jumping out of the water), as is the Damocles gulf crusade. However the names for the configurations are used by the Tau and were originally in a WD article that has been transcribed here if you've not had a chance to read it before. There's a couple of official ones as well that don't see widespread use, largely because they're a bit rubbish - the original ones were either Monat or Ta'ro'cha configurations and quite a few had squads with mismatched weapons. Fio' El's Workshop echoes my main point - that the original designations came from a WD article and therefore had a fairly large initial base of readers who would have some familiarity with the term. ATT just isn't big enough to really come up with a name for the sake of a name even if we were all on board with the idea. However, coming up with a loadout variant (either individual or for a squad) is something that might just spread - there's a plenty of people talking about the updates on other blogs and forums, along with Zone Mortalis stuff that you could easily come up with a interesting configuration - have a few games on it and then spread that knowledge elsewhere. It's at that point you might find a shorthand is useful and sticks, especially if when you mention it you have a handy article written up that lays out the theory and the pros and cons you've experienced. 1) I realize this, I said they were imperial naming designations. I also said that the "fireknife" etc configs were accepted among the community(they have an 'official' post). I was just pointing out that your 3 premises were incorrect, which you've admitted, so I'll drop it. 2) Thanks for the constructive advice. I've been using both suits in quite a few games, once I get a few more I'll start an article and share it. Would it be appropriate to do it here, or in a new post?
| Last edited by Che Gue'vesa on Mar 06 2012 03:25, edited 1 time in total. |
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Shas'Ui
- Tastyfish
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 07:39 |
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Joined: Nov 21 2006 11:05 Location: Cambridge, UK Native English speaker?: Yes
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I think a post per configuration, or possibly per 'tactical problem', would make the most sense. Make it easier to turn into into a tactica for the loadout once the details have been hammered out without the discussion getting held up at the last minute by tangents relating to other configurations and loadouts.
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Shas'Ui
- Vior'la Mont'yon
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 07:40 |
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Joined: Sep 19 2007 02:42 Location: In a middle eastern dustbowl Native English speaker?: Yes
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Please avoid double posting. In the above situation instead of using the full quote you could have quoted key points; or simply used "@ (designated member)" prior to the individual components of your post.
Double posts have been sorted out, please listen to our veteran members and avoid double posting. - Gue'el Che Gue'vesa
_________________ A battle suit for every occasion!
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Fio'Ui
- Fio El's Workshop
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 08:51 |
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Joined: Mar 06 2006 03:33 Location: Nippon (Japan) Native English speaker?: Yes
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shasolozo wrote: I sincerely apologize from the bottom of my heart for trying to add something to the community following existing conventions. You've successfully deterred me. I really appreciate the smug and patronizing tone towards the end, thanks. I came here expecting adult conversation that was constructive and collaborative, you've shown that's obviously not what you're here for. Thanks.
Really? Thats adult conversation? You wanted a discussion, I gave you my point of view, you cant accept that I might not consider your idea is as fantasitic as you think it is, so you reply with nothing but sarcasm. Quote: The Xv81 is equipped with a Smart Missile system as well as having 2 additional hardpoints to fill. I move that this be called the "Brimstone" pattern. Why is your idea for a name better than mine? It doesnt matter if you are following community accepted naming conventions or not, you are not going to get consensus from the majority of any community. The best you can do is to start writing a plethora of battle reports, spam the web with your choice of name and hope it catches on. Thats not condesending, thats called being a realist.
_________________ My son spends my 40K budget on Lego. No complaints here.
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Shas'Saal
- shasolozo
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 09:41 |
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Joined: Jan 30 2012 08:17 Native English speaker?: Yes
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Fio El's Workshop wrote: shasolozo wrote: I sincerely apologize from the bottom of my heart for trying to add something to the community following existing conventions. You've successfully deterred me. I really appreciate the smug and patronizing tone towards the end, thanks. I came here expecting adult conversation that was constructive and collaborative, you've shown that's obviously not what you're here for. Thanks.
Really? Thats adult conversation? You wanted a discussion, I gave you my point of view, you cant accept that I might not consider your idea is as fantasitic as you think it is, so you reply with nothing but sarcasm. Quote: The Xv81 is equipped with a Smart Missile system as well as having 2 additional hardpoints to fill. I move that this be called the "Brimstone" pattern. Why is your idea for a name better than mine? It doesnt matter if you are following community accepted naming conventions or not, you are not going to get consensus from the majority of any community. The best you can do is to start writing a plethora of battle reports, spam the web with your choice of name and hope it catches on. Thats not condesending, thats called being a realist. I wasn't being sarcastic. My idea for a name is better because yours ideas were smug and jerky. and I wasn't asking for everyone to agree with me. Tastyfish wrote: I think a post per configuration, or possibly per 'tactical problem', would make the most sense. Make it easier to turn into into a tactica for the loadout once the details have been hammered out without the discussion getting held up at the last minute by tangents relating to other configurations and loadouts. Got it! I'll start writing. Thanks.
| Last edited by Che Gue'vesa on Mar 06 2012 03:28, edited 1 time in total. |
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Shas'Saal
- Sem'ith
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 10:14 |
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Joined: Jan 21 2011 06:22 Location: Colorado, US Native English speaker?: Yes
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I would listen to the 'Ui, Shas'saal. Their rank here is earned. It is never worth sacrificing the moral high ground, especially as Tau.
Be tactful in what you say around here, it is expected. "Well-written, respectful dialogue is part of what distinguishes ATT, and we take it very seriously."
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Shas'Saal
- shasolozo
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 05 2012 10:17 |
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Joined: Jan 30 2012 08:17 Native English speaker?: Yes
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Sem'ith wrote: I would listen to the 'Ui, Shas'saal. Their rank here is earned. It is never worth sacrificing the moral high ground, especially as Tau.
Be tactful in what you say around here, it is expected. "Well-written, respectful dialogue is part of what distinguishes ATT, and we take it very seriously." From my understanding the rule for well written, respectful dialogue applies to all members. "All of these are as relevant and fitting as your choice of 'Brimstone'. You might not think so, but thats not my problem." Is not respectful. "You cant accept that I might not consider your idea is as fantasitic as you think it is" Is not respectful. Tastyfish was capable of coming in here and having a conversation. So was Tael and the Invoker. All were able to show they didn't like the idea in a constructive way without the seeming intention of making another person fell disrespected.
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Shas'Ui
- Vior'la Mont'yon
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 12:18 |
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Joined: Sep 19 2007 02:42 Location: In a middle eastern dustbowl Native English speaker?: Yes
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@ shasolozo: I will remind you one more time before carrying up the chain of command. Cease double posting. Also in the context of your usage "jerky" is not in any English function relevant to your statement. He did not implicitly disrespect you in any fashion. He merely stated facts and utilized improbable names to prove a point. If you would like to cause a new name to be excepted start some well written batreps.
_________________ A battle suit for every occasion!
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Fio'Ui
- Fio El's Workshop
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 03:11 |
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Joined: Mar 06 2006 03:33 Location: Nippon (Japan) Native English speaker?: Yes
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Shasolozo,
I am not trying to be disrespectful, smug or condesending. I am sorry if it sounds that way to you. Perhaps I was not making myself clear enough. Let me try again before this gets out of hand.
My reason for not agreeing with your idea of giving another name to the Forgeworld suits is this:
The XV81 is the only Tau Crisis battlesuit that *must* take an SMS. Even XV88 Broadsides are not required to do this. Therefore, as an entirely unique battlesuit which has already been given an official, and unique, designation, it does not require another designation to identify it from other suits. Everyone knows what an XV81 is, and what it is required to take. As for the other hardpoints, there are other names already in use which can identify the individual loadouts as required - XV81 Deathrain for example.
The same applies to the other Forgeworld battlesuits.
Could you please explain the reason, or reasons, that you think the suits do actually require another designation other than the ones they already have?
And could you please explain exactly what giving this extra designation is 'adding to the community' as you put it?
Thanks.
_________________ My son spends my 40K budget on Lego. No complaints here.
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Gue'El
- Che Gue'vesa
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 03:43 |
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Joined: Aug 25 2008 01:26 Location: Germany / Wolfenbüttel Native English speaker?: No
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Shasolonzo,
please, avoid double posting in such a short time, I have merged your double posts.
- Gue'el Che Gue'vesa
_________________ Don't Panic!
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Shas'O
- Eiglepulper
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 12:56 |
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Joined: Feb 26 2006 04:45 Location: Carrickfergus, Northern Ireland Native English speaker?: Yes
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Shas'Ui
- Tastyfish
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 03:14 |
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Joined: Nov 21 2006 11:05 Location: Cambridge, UK Native English speaker?: Yes
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shasolozo wrote: Got it! I'll start writing.
Thanks. Out of curiosity, what load out, or sort of load out were you thinking of? Also a Monat or Ta'ro'cha?
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Shas'Saal
- shasolozo
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 09:04 |
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Joined: Jan 30 2012 08:17 Native English speaker?: Yes
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Tastyfish wrote: shasolozo wrote: Got it! I'll start writing.
Thanks. Out of curiosity, what load out, or sort of load out were you thinking of? Also a Monat or Ta'ro'cha? Right now I'm running two Shas'els, one with a xv81 and one with an xv84. Standard games against non-marines: xv84 is using it's markerlight, TL Missle Pods and a CIB.
xv81 is using it's SMS, missle pod and AFP. In city fight (non-marines) I'm using: xv84 with markerlight, TL flamers, CIB
xv81 with it's SMS, flamer, AFPAgainst Marines:xv84 with markerlight, TL Plasma, CIB
xv81 with it's SMS, plasma, AFP. I'm really digging the two working in concert right now, I'm working on writing it up properly.
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Shas'Ui
- Vior'la Mont'yon
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Mar 06 2012 09:17 |
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Joined: Sep 19 2007 02:42 Location: In a middle eastern dustbowl Native English speaker?: Yes
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Mind elaborating more on how you're using them, especially in concert. Also you might consider naming the commanders with how you want to name the configs. It might aid you in getting people to go for. And I must say good luck, it'll be very difficult for the above reasons.
_________________ A battle suit for every occasion!
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Shas'Saal
- shasolozo
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Post subject: Re: [Discussion] Forgeworld XV Naming Posted: Sep 09 2012 06:15 |
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Joined: Jan 30 2012 08:17 Native English speaker?: Yes
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Vior'la Mont'yon wrote: Mind elaborating more on how you're using them, especially in concert. Also you might consider naming the commanders with how you want to name the configs. It might aid you in getting people to go for. And I must say good luck, it'll be very difficult for the above reasons. For standard games I deepstrike the one with the SMS (and now twinlinked misslepod) in the backfield with Iridium armor and he supports my stealth suits. His ability to doll out punishment without needing line of sight can usually force my opponent to send a unit or two back to try and deal with them which allows my front (lead by my commander with the ML, CIB and twinlinked plasma) to push forward harder. It's working great and if their backfield is tougher, I deepstrike the commanders together.
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