This is not intended to be "rate my list" thread but I'm having severe difficulty in even competeing with my friends highly competitive Grey Knights henchman list. The lists are only here to illustrate what I'm up against and to let people see if I have any gaping holes in the list I'm fielding to try and counter it.

I'm regularly getting tabled by the end of the second turn and it's starting to become both boring and embarrassing! His list will typically consist of something like:

3 * 6 psykers in rhinos, I think one unit is in a chimera actually

1 * 3 Melta equipped henchmen in rhino

1 * 6 Death cult assassins in rhino

2 * Psyflemen Dreadnoughts

1 * Vindicare assassin

1 * Nemesis Dreadknight

Coteaz

Techmarine

3 * plasma cannon equipped servitors?

1 * deepstriking paladin with a hammer

I'm finding it a very tough list to play against, lots of vehicles to pop, large blast templates spitting out Strength 8, AP1 instakills which often manage to bypass the benefit I get from shield drones due to number of wounds caused and wound allocation. Psyflemen dreadnoughts also seem extremely nasty, instakill, twinlinking BS4 autcannons wrapped up in AV12 - nasty, nasty, nasty.

Lately - after much tweaking - I've been fielding something pretty close to:

Shas'El - Positional relay,
TL Missile pods
Hard wired Blacksun filter
1 Shield Drone

Elites

3 * Deathrain, Flamer
Team leader - Hard wired Blacksun filter, Hard wired Target lock, 2 gun drones, bonding knife

3 * Twin linked fusion blasters, flamer
Team leader - Hard wired Blacksun filter, Hard wired Target lock, 2 gun drones, bonding knife

Heavy Support
2 * 2 * XV88, ASS
Team Leader + 2 shield drones, Hard wired Blacksun filter, Hard wired Target lock, bonding Knife

Hammerhead, Railgun, Burst Cannon, Disruption pod, Target lock, Multitracker

Troops

2 * 10 Kroot

6 * Firewarriors
Devilfish, Disruption pod

Fast Attack

3 * Tetra, targeting array

I've already tweaked this list to drop one of the tetras and the Shas'El swaps his Positional relay for iridium armour and an extra shield drone and the fusion blaster crisis suits, become firestorms. I actually think fireknives need to make an appearance or maybe even multi tracked Fusion Blasters and Plasma rifles.

Admittedly, last game I think I had pretty appalling luck. Capture and Control, Dawn of War - he stole the initiative and by the end of his second turn a unit of broadsides and the deathrains had routed and run off the board. The two kroot units were also falling back. Yep, four failed leadership tests out of four!

Now I'm sure I made some mistakes. For instance, I had my deathrains tucked in tight behind the Hammerhead, forgetting that blast templates can target a vehicle and also hit units standing close, so what I thought was a safe place was effectively the same as being out in the open, save for cover saves of course. Noobs take note! If you want to really use vehicles as cover make sure the unit hiding behind them is at least 1.5" away from the hull of the vehicle or you'll still get hit by blast weapons!

It just seems like it only takes a couple of bad dice rolls and that's it, game over. Does anyone have any sound advice? Would an ethereal be worth taking or am I just being swayed by the dice gods mocking me for one game?!

I really want to enjoy the Tau but they seem *so* fragile - I guess that's just part of the list but right now I feel in desperate need of some sound advice. As I say, I'm not really looking for anyone to rate my list just for advice or tactics I should be using. I suspect the problem lies in exactly how I'm using the troops more than the troops I'm using if that makes sense.

without better description of how you consistently get tabled, its difficult to talk about how you play.

but looking at your list, i feel its ill-suited to fight a competitive marine list. this site doesnt do list building, so i'm not gonna go in-depth into why i say this. you can pm me if you want.

a vague suggestion in this case based on the information available is to a) get more guns, b) choose long-ranged guns rather than short range, c) build in redundancy.

Ok - first, although from your list it looks rather medium-high, what points value exactly is it?

Second piece of advice would be to drop the hammerhead for another unit of Broadsides. The submunitions won't help against mech MEQ and you get more, more accurate railguns with Broadsides.

Thirdly, because this isn't rate my list, we'd need to sort out some tactics for you (and anyone else who's got the same problem). Unfortunately, I haven't played against Grey Knights (only a small, mostly vanilla marines gaming group), so can't help you here other than the broadside advice.

Pantherus

Sorry, I should have said, we're playing at 1500 points.

And yes, it's certainly tactical advice that I'm after - I've already toyed with the idea of more broadsides, but his list is more GEQ than MEQ and I thought perhaps I could do with the mobile cover? Of course, I could well be very wrong and I'm aware that he is playing what I would deem a particularly competitive list. Part of the problem is figuring out target priority - I'm sure I often end up splitting my fire, and not managing to annihilate anything in the one turn of firing I manage to get in.

Any thoughts on what I should prioritise? I realise this is a bit vague but I'm starting to feel a bit lost!

Fun fact, 3 broadsides with 2 markerlights will literally rip apart any squad of henchmen out there with a volley of SMS (Around 8 wounds of un-saveable wounds for most of them and it bypasses the usual wound shenanigans by wound saturation). Always remember that your Broadsides have a secondary weapons system ,while yes, we all take broadsides for the railguns I have been saved numerous times by firing SMS with two markerlights (With three tetra it looks like you have the marker support). Also I would suggest adding two target locks to those tetras as in most cases all you really want is the 2 hits to jump up to BS 5.

Quite right, only I never manage to last that long!!

Anyway - I get the message, more broadsides, less hammerheads, drop the fusion guys - at least in their deep striking capacity. I'm toying with plasma+fusion+multi tracker to hit the dreadknight when he appears, that paladin that could cause problems and any vehicles that get too close. But that may yet change to good old fireknives...

Do deepstriking fusion blasters really ever have a use? The opportunity cost appears very high to me and you can't really afford that with Tau it seems to me. Just thinking out loud - I'm sure that's been that's already been covered ad nauseum and this is not the place for anything approaching "rate my list" and I'm not after that...

Thanks for the pointers guys - I guess I'm just going to have to dust myself off and try again (we're on the verge of starting to implement a handicap system to account for the overpriced codex - did I just hear the pop of a can of worms opening!!)

As far as target priority here’s my two cents, with least threat first.

The melta squad - not a great range or bs and only 2 shots from a rhino (sure these weren't in the chimera?) should leave them fairly useless especially if you switched out the Hammerhead for more Broadsides, would likely be the last thing I would bother with (make sure he is measuring from the top hatch and not the hull as it reduces the low range even further)

The deathcults - I know one of the best HtoH units in the game, well to Tau the deathcults may as well be grots as either would kill most tau units. They don’t have fleet or an assault ramp in this situation meaning they need to either spend a turn in the open which would be suicide vs tau or wait an extra turn to assault from the stationary rhino so I wouldn’t bother with them until around turn 3 if they do somehow manage to get in a position to charge you earlier just feed them a kroot squad and clean them up with little effort in your next turn.

The plasma cannon servitors - try to keep out of range and they are too slow to be an issue I know it’s a big bubble but if you are deploying far back in your zone he shouldn’t reach you for a while, if he hasn’t paired Coteaz with them make sure he remembers to test for mindlock each turn making them fairly useless.

The paladin I would advise killing as soon as he lands, not a major threat but considering it shouldn’t take much to kill him I’d say finish him quick with any spare low quality fire (burst canons etc.).

2 Psyflemen Dreadnoughts - with 8 strength 8 shots they will be deadly to your crisis and bsides but they aren’t all that tough when your packing railguns, if you take the 6 broadsides they shouldn't even be an issue.

Now on to the big hitters that are likely to be the game deciders.

Vindicare assassin - A big threat to your high point units like commanders and broadsides and can be very hard to kill due to the 2+ cover, depending on deployment it might be best to just cut your losses and leave him for later even if it means losing 2 broadsides or tetras. However as you have so many tetras try to light him up and take his cover save to 4+(same as invul) and hit him with some bs upped broadsides for an instakill, an easy kill if you can set it up.

The 3 psyker squads - with strength 9 ap 1 large blasts they are the biggest threat he's packing, first order of business is to get them out of the rhinos then if they are out of range (36") focus on the next target if not then wipe them or at least kill a few in each squad (losing them 1 strength and upping the ap for each)

Nemesis Dreadknight - the flamer will decimate your kroot and the rest of the army wont fair too well either and it can take a lot of punishment, as soon as the Psyflemen are down I would target this with anything that can bypass its 2+ so all your broadsides and the fusion suits if you can get them close enough, I would also advise maybe bringing some plasma on some of your suits as you suggested, they would be a great help here as the fusion suits will struggle to get this close without taking heavy losses.

I always bring squads of Twin Linked Plasma suits with target arrays. Sure people will say it's overkill, but with marker light support they provide a reliable and measurable amount of death on the enemy each turn. Against this list I would hazard to say make -all- of your suits Twin-Linked Plasma with TA's, but give your commander a TL Plasma and a Melta with a Multi-traker. Shas'El are already BS4 after all.

All that plasma should help you melt even a dreadknight, and your rails should be used to kill the psy dreads ASAP. With proper spacing hits from plates can be reduced in lethality, but 8 direct shots at ST8 is killer and will cut your XV-8's to swiss cheese.

Target priority for me is;

1.) Psykers
2.) Psyflemen Dreads
3.) Dreadknight
4.) Vindicare

So you make them BS 5 with TL?! You spend 10 points on getting another 6/36 of a shot. This doesn't seem to be very efficient at all. If you saved up your points you'd have 60 left over for ANOTHER suit. Surely then you get the same hits for each shot, but the other suit brings in the chance for more hits if you roll well, as well as more wounds and targets. It also frees up the other hardpoint. I'd steer clear of them. The maths says at best, they're as good in killy as another suit and cost as much, so go for more wounds.

This is basically what I go with but I agree with Pantherus in that I'd skip out on the targeting arrays. For me, Crisis Suits need to be either twin linked or BS 4, not both, but that's me. I actually use the other points for more suits like Pantherus suggests or I buy gun drones for the extra wounds.

I have success against FNP MEQ armies with a lot of plasma and a lot of melta...surprise huh?!

I do find I take Melta for the anti infantry rather than anti tank duties. It also comes in handy if something big turns up, but I prefer it as a baby plasma rifle. With Melta.

Twin-Linked XV-8 with TA is BS4 not BS5. It basically is nearly impossible for your shots not to hit, which gives you reliability. Sure a few extra shots might possibly score you more hits, but you might also miss more shots. Your other key words were "if you roll well". TL BS4 doesn't require you to roll well, you have nearly garunteed reliable hits so you know exactly how much damage you can swing where. You might get 20 Damage as opposed to 10-30 Damage, but I would choose the damage I know I can get over the damage I might possibly get.

I also run 15 XV-8's myself, so I don't have room for anymore suits. =P

You also said 'with markerlight support'. The only way on from BS4 is...

Hence why I see it as extreme overkill.

@ Nevar

Burning eyes (TL-plasma/TA), to me, are too specialized, and are costly for their total output of shots.

While its good to ensure reliability in hitting, this load-out has a major problem of lacking duality. Versus MCs, footslogging marines/termies, its great. Versus mech, not so much.

Any reliability you gain from the high rate of hitting is countered by the low rate of destroying any vehicle. Even assuming you use your railguns to destroy vehicles, and then use your burning eyes for the contents, they would almost always gain cover due to a crater, or by coming out behind the vehicle. Having a 30 pt gun give just one to two wounds with a 4+ save is underwhelming, especially if what your shooting at is an IG or ork infantry for instance, and not a marine.

Also, a lack of missile-pods place you at a disadvantage against armies with prevalent long-range shooting. Imagine a shootout with armies using autocannons/pyscannons/missiles. Your range is 24" and your only truly effective at 12". you would face heavy casualties even getting in range. While railguns help out, if the opponent has a certain amount of long-range shooting, you simply will not be able to keep up with just plasma supporting those railguns.

If you have solutions to cope with all the issues ive pointed out, do share though. Am always interested in learning new strategies.

So Nevar... I understand why that much Plasma might sound good on paper and would totally kill a MEQ list, but I don't see the benefit against this list in particular which is essentially a GEQ list with knobs on.

For anyone who doesn't understand the problem with Grey Knight Psyker Henchmen, they improve with number up to a maximum effectiveness of high enough strength and AP to be insta-killing just about anything in the Tau list, and they do this using a large blast template - meaning that you really need ablative wounds to survive a direct hit that might cover two of your models. On top of that they can do it quite happily sat inside a transport vehicle on the other side of the board, so that'll be about AV11, meaning plasma's going to need 6's to penetrate. Oh, and grey knight rhinos can shrug off shaken and stunned results and attempt to repair immobilised results - so you're going to want to penetrate...

With all this in mind - I'm not sure I see the point in maxing out on plasma that'll only be specialised against the Dreadknight, Missile Pods maybe....

Thanks for the responses people...

Statistically speaking, if you can get atleast roughly 50% more shots with one option as opposed to a re-roll of all your missed shots on another option, the first choice is better. You have the same statistical chances to score damage on the low end of the spectrum, and you increase the potential max damage greatly.


65 points for 1 twinlinked shot at 13-24" is already severely handicapping yourself as a tau player, since thats the mid range that you need to excel at for dealing with most major threats. Sure on a suit, you can jump back an extra 6" so theoretically you could stay out of assault range when rapid firing, but you still expose yourself to the enemy rapid fire in return. and when you have 15 suits doing this, that means you have roughly 30 Marine equivalent wounds to work with. Doing enough damage to kill 30 marines in this game is not hard, and they can remove multiple wounds with s8 weapons. Boosting said single shot earns little benefit for the extra markerlight cost, short of striping cover, and even then, what would you get from this? Maybe 1.5 marine squads that die each turn if everything goes perfectly? What about dealing with other threats? What if there's durable transports?

@AlfOmega - the fusion gun has plenty of uses, but as you pointed out, its a high risk gun. using it safely requires spending time maneuvering it into range, and either killing the target completely or jumping away from retaliation range. plasma melta suits wreck plenty of damage for the points cost and still has that punch needed for dealing with close vehicle units just in case (not the most efficient use of them overall, but it's a godsend when you see a deep striking dreadnought on the horizon) using it to boost your rapid fire plasma means 3 terminator killing shots a turn. Using it with a missile pod for a deep striking crisis gives your opponent plenty to fear, since you're getting one of the cheapest and (arguably) effective methods of efficient back armor destruction in the game. cheaper targets can always be cleared off with the missiles if you want to stay safe, and the more costly ones (that justify deep striking on a table edge for instance) will merit the risks of the fusion. despite its obvious risks, it still has a strong place in the Tau arsenel if you can use it right. (but i guess that goes with everything in the Tau codex)

My list normally includes:

Shas'El: TL Plasma + Fusion + MT
~x2 Burn Eye Body Guards

Shas'El: TL Plasma + Fusion + MT
~x2 Burn Eye Body Guards

Elite XV-8 Death Rain x3

Elite XV-8 Death Rain x3

Elite XV-8 Death Rain x3

Two 6 Man Firewarrior Squads in DF

x2 Tetras

One Railhead

Broadside with x2 Shield Drones and TA

Broadside with x2 Shield Drones and TA

This makes my entire list, besides the FW and DF, BS4 and most with re-rolls. The plasma did not "sound good on paper", Fire-knives did. When I first entered the Greater Good I poured over the tacticas and such of countless forums and websites and listened to other players. I built my kroot squads, fielded piranha, and ran with fire-knives. I did everything all the veteran told me was the best way to field a Cadre. I won half the time, lost half the time.

Then one day during an apoc game where I had rediculous amounts of points and not enough models to fit the bill, I fielded all 15 of my XV-8's as Shas'O with TL Plasma + Melta to make points. The TL Plasma saved my bacon over and over, as I pretty much roll all 3's when I play. It's very frustrating to roll rapid fire for 12 firewarriors and score six hits total, all because of my propensity to roll 3's. Statistics said it was impossible, but statistics are averages across an infinite theoretical spectrum. Math Hammer and Warhammer are two separate things.


Also, it's not merely the army list, it's the tactics you have to employ. All tau players play mobile defense pretty much. Castle with kroot, delay with piranhas and drones etc. and shoot the enemy as they close. My opponents and most of your opponents know this as well as we do. When you XV-8's plowing into the center of their formation melting their most lethal units with point blank plasma fire, it sets them back on heel right off the bat. Many opponent have given me the smug 'you are so new' look as I deployed a swath of XV-8's as close to the enemy as possible. They never keep it long once the plasma starts flying.

TL Plasma is important for one reason. With marker light support you can remove an opponent's ability to roll any saves. The only 'saves' they get are your to wound rolls, and plasma wounds most targets on a 2+. Twin-linked means you are not likely to miss any shots, you will most likely wound with all of them, and with two tetras lighting up the squad they will be getting no cover saves at all. That means you roll 12 wounds, he removes 12 models.

Sure a Fire-knife squad -can- do better when things go your way, but the psychology of that plasma induced doom is worth more in the game than any statistics you rattle off. The obvious, apparent, and undeniable damage you -will- cause each turn will draw all eyes to your Burn Eyes. No one shoots my broadsides or hammerhead, no one notices the Deathrains pouring missiles into the transports and other semi-soft targets... they only see the plasma death machines at the center of the board. Cover saves and drones help mitigate wounds, and the devilfish provide mobile cover as much as they can. Tau only need to hold one objective to win, not all of them. Three surviving firewarriors are still three objective scorers. If you melt all their troop choices and maintain your forces yourself, you can secure victory in the first three turns with all out aggressive Mont'Ka tactics. The only time my list has difficulty is against horde armies, which are few and far between, and even then with the hammerhead's and deathrain support you can lay some pain on the enemy with proper target priority.

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I digress, as to the use against -this list- the Grey Knight one, using railguns to dismount the Psykers, and missile pods instant kill them if they even have more than one wound. I have faced them before and they died without accomplishing much. I always dread the psyflemen dreads most of all, because they turn my charging burn eyes to swiss cheese.

Also a lot of GEQ can be easily mopped up in... *wait for it*... assault by XV-8. Blast them to a few left over models, then assault to finish them off, then happily consolidate back into cover or toward your next target.

Very true, i find fireknives inconsistent. which is why i bring 2 squads of pathfinders.

Its good that you found your own way of playing. Here's the thing though, in order to ensure that you have both deathrains and burning eyes, you are paying a big premium on your bodyguards, making a expensive loadout even more expensive.

That being said, your army looks fun to play and definitely isnt a bad one. but there are issues with it. to begin, with no form of blocking, any fast army (beasts, jetpacks assault vehicles) would get into your face too easily. you can shoot them of course but if they get into combat with one of your 2 hq units, youve likely lost half of your fearsome plasma.

You mentioned that burning eyes help attract fire and keep your broadsides/hammerhead from being shot. which is confusing to me because those are the units you want to be shot. 2+ (& 4+ cover) save together with shield drones means your broadsides can soak up fire like nobody's business. railheads with AV13 and disruption pod arent slouches too. also, in terms of cost, you stand to lose just as much when they shoot at your burning eyes, but with less durability. if its true that opponents do not shoot at your broadsides because they focus on your crisis suits instead, you definitely need to remove your shield drones thats 70 points that can be used elsewhere.

you also mention that you can assault to kill GEQ, which is definitely true, and something i tell others as well. however, using this as a strategy to 'mop up' GEQ is unreliable. in order to assault a troop, you need to start the turn 12 " away from them, placing you within rapid fire and melta range during your opponents turn. im not saying it cant be done, but it would likely rely on your opponent being a poor player, or a great deal of terrain for you to jump in and out of.

lastly, as you mention yourself, you have issues with psyfledreads and horde armies, and likely missiles etc as well. All of these are actually reasonably common.

It is entirely a personal method of playing, and I do not espouse my methods as the best way. It is merely annoying that the 'One List' seems to have everyone wrapped up in covering every flaw.

The body guard units are 10 points more expensive, so my premium cost to add four more XV8's is 40 points.

As to blocking units, I have devilfish and their drones, as well as firewarriors in desperate situations. Fish of Fury is mostly dead, but the Devilfish are along for the center push to provide 'blocking' and mobile cover to the Burn Eyes. This doesn't mean some Firewarriors don't pop out from time to time to add the final pew to finish particularly nasty enemies. Also, the two squads of Burn Eyes can reliably kill nearly every enemy unit in the game in one shooting phase with lights on their target. Ten man sanguinary guard get 14 MEQ killing shots, most of which are likely to land, ignore FNP, and ignore even 3 and 2+ armor. Also, the deployment method is obviously effected by the presence of such units and where they are placed.

As to the attention being drawn from my railguns, to me it is a plus since I only have three railguns for killing heavy armored targets. I find this a weakness since a enemy can remove the railguns and leave me pretty much helpless to heavy armor like massed Leman Russ etc. My only other heavy armor killing weapons are the melta on the Burn Eyes. Therefore I do purposely draw attention and fire to the center of the board, and usually have my two broadsides on opposite corners for good crossfire. Usually the all out push down the center stalls and the Burn Eyes then make hasty redeployments backwards while firing, drawing most of the 'scary' stuff down the middle into a crossfire of deathrain and railgun with constant peppering from plasma. Doesn't always work like that, but with XV-8's you can play very 'fluid' unlike standard kroot wrapped 'base of fire' tactics. As to the shield drones, the broadsides do receive frustrated heavy weapons fire like lascannons periodically through the game. I think I have replaced the shield drones with gun drones since 4+ cover is easily found and saves me points.

As to the issue being within range to 'mop up' GEQ... my XV-8's are ankle deep in enemy units, a lot of times the assault into GEQ is what bails them out of a melee swarm of doom. Assault a nearly destroyed GEQ unit, wipe them out, and get another bit of free movement away from the bulk of the enemy. It requires that sufficiently reduced squads are nearby, but that is part of the strategy of your movement and shooting phases. There is a difference between your opponent being poor, and you playing completely the opposite of all of their previous experience. One fellow shook my hand after the battle and told me I completely surprised him because most of his other tau opponents avoided melee like the plague, and he did not expect me to assault into smaller units which he was trying to use to hem in the XV-8's.

The worst it Longfang Spam. My old roomy in Korea played Space Wolves and made it his personal vendetta to defeat my Tau. Obviously I am stacked with plasma for killing MEQ and TEQ, so it was often a bloody shoot fest with both of use left with smoldering ruins of our forces. He eventually tied me and decided that was good enough, by playing MEQ Horde. Ninty-Eight power armored marines with Grey Hunters in termie armor and cyclones joined to three units of longfangs. He had enough missiles to theoretically wipe every XV-8 off the board in one turn. It ended up as a tie at the end due to one heavily damaged Devilfish slinking onto an open objective on turn six. =D

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But to further tackle the OP's issue. If i recall correctly, isn't the strength of the Psyker's plate determined by how many Psykers are in the squad is some fashion? I ask because you might get away with just damaging each squad sufficiently. Knock off a few psykers early and ignore their weaker plates the rest of the game perhaps? Railguns for their transports, and some aggressively positioned deathrains could do wonders in that situation.

Finally, perhaps you could justify a deep striking Flamer suit to try and burn out his Vindicare. I do not know the new rules for that guy, but from what I understand he is nearly all cover save no?

All fair statements =) i do agree with you. every list no matter how well thought out has some flaws. if your aware of the flaws, i wont claim to say you should change anything. it would simply be a calculated risk that youve accounted for.

I still nonetheless hold that if your opponent shoots at your broadsides rather than crisis suits, its a good deal. Missiles and autocannon shots in particular are a joy as you can make full use of your 2+. I also agree with keeping shield drones, as those mean you can save all your S8 shots on them with no risk of a fluke, and lascannons as well as you point out. though your low number of railguns and melta does make it important to preserve those rather than crisis suits i guess.

My only real issue with what youve said is:

My issue with statements like this is that its a one-off, and not a guaranteed one at that. Where i come from, about half of the tau players here have no qualms assaulting with crisis suits. Ive even assaulted termies (rare scenarios). And assuming your opponent is surprised, what happens if you play him again? Or if you play someone who's played a tau player whos not afraid to assault. you might expect them to be surprised, but they arent, making you the surprised one now. For all of these what-ifs, thats why i say that its not a reliable strategy, especially if you aim to win competitions.